Is it Biblical to Shun??

by charlie 35 Replies latest jw friends

  • charlie
    charlie

    I'm not a Witness, but I know one very well and we have had many discussions on various topics. We would both like to know, however, if it is Biblical to shun the disfellowshipped/disassociated? Where in the Bible does the Society base the practice of shunning or groveling back for a long period of time if a person is sorry and wants to return to the church? Why can't a brother/sister encourage the person for returning or try to encourage him to keep coming back? Why does he have to be shunned continously until reinstated? Sure a person needs to be punished, but what about forgiveness? Does he still need to be shunned? Sure, the need for caution, in case it happens again, but is the Society so insecure that disfellowshipped/disassociated people will bring down everyone that they can't let anyone talk to them? Or is it a fear tactic to keep people from leaving the church? What if a family member decides not to be a Witness for whatever reason, he can't associate with his family (other than immediate family he lives with) anymore because he might bring down his family? I think that if a person feels brought down because the person is obviously immoral and is hindering his relationship with God (Jehovah)or other Witnesses then he should be the one to cut of the relationship rather than the Society almost demanding that the person shun the other. However, if the Society sees/knows that a problem is arising, then take some action. The Society to me seems to have an awful lot of control over its members. Associating with someone who has been DF'd or DA'd doesn't mean that a person agrees with the behavior or is siding with that person. We deal with people every day in our schools and workplaces, some people we have to spend time with more than our families or fellow Witness, but we don't shun them. They may do wrong and we see it but we still work with them and talk with them. That doesn't show that we agree with their actions. If we participate or maybe don't voice that we think what they are doing is wrong, then it may look like we are siding with them and that is wrong.

    But my question: where in the Bible does it say that we must shun the disfellowshipped or disassociated?

    Anyway, sorry this is so long and wordy.

  • Simon
    Simon

    The scripture they quote is 'not even say a greeting to such a one', I can't remember where it is off hand.
    Unfortunately, they miss the next bit which is '...but keep on admonishing them...'. How can you admonish and encourage someone if you are not speaking to them?
    Interestingly, there was a WatchTower a while ago which I think was about Reprooving where they used the same scriptures and arguments that they use to back up 'not talking to disfellowshipped ones' to show that you should speak to reprooved ones and encourage them.
    I'm sure a better bible student than me will be able to tell us the scripture...anyone?

  • mgm
    mgm

    hello
    in this point, the first christians did act in about the same way.
    They were known among the pegans to separate families because of religion. Severel first centuries literature confirm that fact!

    But, since I don't believe in the bible as God's word and Jesus as God's son, I don't care aniway...

  • trevor
    trevor

    Hello Charlie,

    Yes the Bible does say that those that have left the faith should be shunned and not even to sit and eat with them.

    The Bible also told the Israelites, when they were under law, to stone their children to death for disobedience and kill anyone who lit a fire on the sabbath.

    You have decide whether to take instructions from an ancient book of decide for your self what is a decent way to treat others.

    trevor

  • Frenchy
    Frenchy
    Where in the Bible does the Society base the practice of shunning or groveling back for a long period of time if a person is sorry and wants to return to the church?


    1 Cor 5:9-13 In my letter I wrote YOU to quit mixing in company with fornicators, not [meaning] entirely with the fornicators of this world or the greedy persons and extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, YOU would actually have to get out of the world. But now I am writing YOU to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do YOU not judge those inside, while God judges those outside? "Remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves."
    2 John 10-11 " If anyone comes to YOU and does not bring this teaching, never receive him into YOUR homes or say a greeting to him. For he that says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works."

    In time he may seek reinstatement in the clean congregation. When elders then meet with him, they will try to determine whether he has repented and left his sinful course. (Matthew 18:18) If that is the case, he may be reinstated, in line with the pattern at 2 Corinthians 2:5-8. –w91 4/15 p.21


    2 Cor 2: 5-11"Now if anyone has caused sadness, he has saddened, not me, but all of YOU to an extent—not to be too harsh in what I say. This rebuke given by the majority is sufficient for such a man, so that, on the contrary now, YOU should kindly forgive and comfort [him], that somehow such a man may not be swallowed up by his being overly sad. Therefore I exhort YOU to confirm YOUR love for him. For to this end also I write to ascertain the proof of YOU, whether YOU are obedient in all things. Anything YOU kindly forgive anyone, I do too. In fact, as for me, whatever I have kindly forgiven, if I have kindly forgiven anything, it has been for YOUR sakes in Christ's sight; that we may not be overreached by Satan, for we are not ignorant of his designs."

    Why can't a brother/sister encourage the person for returning or try to encourage him to keep coming back? Why does he have to be shunned continously until reinstated? Sure a person needs to be punished, but what about forgiveness? Does he still need to be shunned? Sure, the need for caution, in case it happens again, but is the Society so insecure that disfellowshipped/disassociated people will bring down everyone that they can't let anyone talk to them?

    ......
    Former friends and relatives might hope that a disfellowshipped one would return; yet out of respect for the command at 1 Corinthians 5:11, they do not associate with an expelled person. They leave it to the appointed shepherds to take the initiative to see if such a one is interested in returning. W91 4/15 p. 22

    This particular article was setting up the then ‘new' arrangement of elders approaching df'd ones once a year to ask them if they were interested in ‘coming back'. In line with that that same article states: " It would not be fitting even for elders to take the initiative toward certain expelled ones, such as apostates, who ‘speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.' These are ‘false teachers who are trying to bring in destructive sects and to exploit the congregation with counterfeit words.' (Acts 20:30; 2 Peter 2:1, 3) The Bible also does not provide any basis for searching out disfellowshipped ones who are belligerent or who actively encourage wrongdoing.—2 Thessalonians 2:3; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 John 9-11; Jude 4, 11." –w91 4/15 p.22 Note the warning to the elders not to approach ‘apostates'? The Society is very fearful of any of the faithful coming into contact with any former member of the religion. Please note the following excerpt from the same article:
    In recent times there have been cases in which an elder happened to meet a disfellowshipped person. Where appropriate, the shepherd briefly outlined the steps to be taken for reinstatement. Some persons like this repented and were reinstated. Such joyful outcomes indicate that there may be disfellowshipped or disassociated ones who would respond to a merciful approach made by the shepherds. But how might the elders handle this matter? Once a year at most, the body of elders should consider whether there are such persons living in their territory. The elders would focus on those who have been expelled for over a year. According to the circumstances, if it is appropriate, they would assign two elders (hopefully ones familiar with the situation) to visit such an individual. No visit would be made on any who evidence a critical, dangerous attitude or who have made it known that they want no help.—Romans 16:17, 18; 1 Timothy 1:20;

    Or is it a fear tactic to keep people from leaving the church? What if a family member decides not to be a Witness for whatever reason, he can't associate with his family (other than immediate family he lives with) anymore because he might bring down his family?

    What is involved in disfellowshipping? We find an object lesson in the way a problem was handled in the first century. A Christian in Corinth engaged in immorality with his father's wife and did not repent, so Paul directed that he be expelled from that congregation. This had to be done to protect the cleanness of God's people, for "a little leaven ferments the whole lump." Expelling him would prevent his wickedness from dishonoring both God and His people. The severe discipline of being disfellowshipped might also shock him to his senses and instill in him and the congregation due fear of God.—1 Corinthians 5:1-13; compare Deuteronomy 17:2, 12, 13.w91 4/15 p 15-16

    The stated purpose is to ‘protect' the congregation by removing the ‘wicked' one. To shock the disobedient one to ‘his senses.' To instill fear into the congregation just in case they are thinking about doing it.
    But my question: where in the Bible does it say that we must shun the disfellowshipped or disassociated?
    See 2 John 10-11. That is the Scripture the Society uses to justify the action.
    I hope this helps. If you need more info let me know.

    -Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-

  • thinkers wife
    thinkers wife

    Well Frenchy,
    You beat me to it. I was going to tell Charlie the scriptures. You just saved me some time!
    Charlie,
    Welcome. What good probing questions you asked.
    IMHO,

    , but is the Society so insecure that disfellowshipped/disassociated people will bring down everyone that they can't let anyone talk to them? Or is it a fear tactic to keep people from leaving the church? What if a family member decides not to be a Witness for whatever reason, he can't associate with his family (other than immediate family he lives with) anymore because he might bring down his family?


    both of these statements are the case.
    I am wondering why your JW friend isn't familiar with these scriptures quoted by Frenchy?
    Thinker Wife

  • happytobefree
    happytobefree

    I experienced the fickled side of the shunning. I became pregnant when I was 18 yrs. old (not married). I hid my pregnancy (from my parents and everyone), because I was so ashamed and so afraid. My father was an elder (a dogmatic, harsh elder), so you know I would feel the wrath from him, because of his HORRIBLE advice to other parents (One he adviced to kick their 16yr. old daughter out of the home, because of her pregnancy). Anyway I hid my pregnancy with the intentions of putting my son up for adoption. I had move out of my parents home, so this made it easy for me to hide the pregnancy. Well anyway, I had my child and had made the arrangements for the adoption. The father (non JW), was very supportive of me, but after my child had been in the foster care for about 1 week, I told him I wanted my baby. Anyway my family found out and believe it or not my mother was overwhelmingly supportive and had to endure servere verbal and mental abuse from my father. It was so bad that she even move in with me for a couple of weeks. Well at the time they would disassociated a unbaptized publisher, so I went before the judicial committee and they drilled me with the horrible questions (How many times did you have sex, where did you have sex; What type of sex did you partake in? Did you enjoy the sex;, etc.) Well about the 10th question I snapped, I call them all perverted bastards and I told them to do whatever they had to do, because I had no intentions of ever stepping foot in another KH for the rest of my life (I wish I had stuck to this). Well you know what that meant that I would be disassociated. So the next meeting they read my name off. And I so happen to run into 2 sister in a grocery store, after that. The one did have something to say (she was my aunt), how could you disgrace my brother and our family the way you did. And the other rolled her eyes and walked away. I cannot describe how horrible this made me feel.

    Anyway I'm going to try to get back to my point, and end this long horrid story. Some new light came out exactly 2 mos. after my disassociation (same as disfellowshipping). That people who have never been baptized cannot be disfellowshipped or disassociated. Well my mother had been very vocal about this not being scriptual in the first place, and demanded that they apologize to me (she thought that would help me return). Well the apology never came. But the 2 sisters I mentioned earlier. I went to the KH and the first to approach me was the rolled eye sister, and her statement was I so glad to see you with a hug, let me see that baby - followed by I must get you a gift. Oh and next was my aunt (bitch), I'm glad to see you have returned to Jehovah and I love you.

    Finally my point, I was the same fornicator as I was 2 mos. ago. And at this point I was living with my child's father. So that goes to show you how much the really listen to the boys in Brooklyn. And it is so sad.

    Thanks for being patient with this long post. I know it has been therapeutic to me.

    Happy to Be Free (Me)

    Edited by - happytobefree on 18 January 2001 10:9:54

  • mommy
    mommy

    happytobefree,
    (((((((HUGS)))))))
    Having a baby is HARD enough but to do it alone and degraded for it is even worse:( I am sorry!!
    If I had to do it all over again.... In my JC meeting I would probably be a smart ass:) I would go into ALL the details and watch THEM squirm in their seats:)
    Sorry that was my outburst about what happened to you! But it would be kinda funny huh? And everyone that comes up and rolls there eyes or makes snide comments, I would have a WHOLE mouthful for them.
    Let me at 'em:)
    mommy

  • thinkers wife
    thinkers wife

    Happy to be Free,
    How totally ridiculous. This is what comes of making rules to be changed at any moment. I know some one's that this very thing happened to. You can't remove damage that has already been done.
    And the emotional results to the individual are massive and non-refundable (meaning they can't be fixed, for lack of a better way to put it). Big hugs to you. Keep posting and healing.
    TW

  • happytobefree
    happytobefree

    Thanks for the hugs Mommy and TW,

    Mommy, I have paid them back for that committee meeting. One brother who was on the committee, son was so in love with me. Well this young man came to me after the baby and said if I needed anything he would be there to help. He even asked me to marry him and to raise my son as his. Well his fathers reply, was why do you want a whore like her. Well any the son was hurt by his father's comment and told me. So the next time I attended the hall his father with all smiles, ask me how was I doing and he was glad to see me - and I politely replied, I'm doing fine and surprised you are concerned with the well-being of a whore. He literally tripped and fell and everyone who heard the reply was gasping for air. And the funny thing is not one person helped him to his feet. And if that is not funny enough, the watchtower study for that meeting was about the elders taking care of the flock. And I raised my hand and gave a wonderful comment, about the brothers learning to have a more compassion and tact, and if they showed more love, we would not be like oh Bro. such is at the door, I wonder what I have done now. Well anyway the comment received a lot of follow up comments (I guess alot of the cong. was feeling bad). One sister call them the KH Police.

    As I think about it, my big mouth and honesty, is probably the reason I have never once received a sheparding call or no one has showed any concern as to why I have not been to a meeting in about a 1 or Field service for 3 yrs.

    Well that's all I have to say about that.

    Happy to be Free (Me)

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