by puzzled 33 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
i posted the original comment regarding the absence of archeological evidence for the Israelite trek thru the wilderness. to learn more about this, i recommend reading The Bible Unearthed by Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman. i might get a chance later to post some particular points regarding the wliderness trek. or try here to get a taste: http://www.rense.com/general18/bible.htm
mox
I don't think the Bible has survived these thousands of years by dumb luck or by human need to cling to something. It survived because truth has a way of doing that.
Oh, I see you are also a believer in the Hindu Vedas, then.
During the Last century a number of explorers re-discovered a group of ancients inscriptions in the Wadi Mukatteb(The Vally of the Writing) in the Sinai Peninsula. When they were deciphered the researchers concluded that they contained detailed descriptions of the events of the Exodus from Egypt by the Children of Israel under the leadership of Moses. These inscriptions are even refered to in historical writings well before the time of Christ. Scholars concluded that these inscriptions were most likely written by either the Israelites themselves or others that were alive at the time.Not sure how an inscription that was probably written around the time of Babylonian exile proves that the Exodus from Egypt really happened. Perhaps you could provide the source of this claim?
I have pictures and the translations into english of the inscriptions in a book I own as well as more information on similar topics if interested.
Everything in the Bible is archeologically correct and supported. There is not one finding contrary to scripture to date. Interesting topic though to see how incredibly supported by archeology and history and science the Bible is.Hardly. There are some things that have absolutely no Archeological support, such as the exodus from Egypt and the extensive kingdom of King David and Solomon, the Walls of Jerico being destroyed by the Israelites, and even the claims of conquest of the Caananites by the Israelites. There are also many things in the bible that are contrary to Geological evidence, such as the flood and creation account. That's not to say that the bible doesn't have some or even much of it's history correct. But that is no evidence that it is inspired by god.
rem
"We all do no end of feeling, and we mistake it for thinking." - Mark Twain
Hello REM:
In reply to your statements:
Oh, I see you are also a believer in the Hindu Vedas, then.
No I don't believe in them because they do not pass the other tests of truth. The Bible does pass those tests of not containing any errors whether scientific, historical, prophetic etc....Therefore it is correct and truth. We then need to look at whether the Vedas have the same qualification: they do not. Now anything else proporting to be truth would have to be in line with already established truth and not contrary-- Which rules out the Vedas.
Not sure how an inscription that was probably written around the time of Babylonian exile proves that the Exodus from Egypt really happened. Perhaps you could provide the source of this claim?Would be glad to:
It shows to support that their were actual people that actually went through these things and that this was not some story made up later to include in the Bible.
Another archeological find pertinant is a grave yard in Kibroth-hattaavah (the same region) of jews that died in a supernatural plague. The plague described in Numbers 11:34&35.
There were inscriptions there as well on the graves and tombs in similar language as the previous mentioned which accounted how the people had died and that they were in fact jewish from that time. This goes to show further that the Jews were present and dying there at that time in history and the records inscribed show their history--it is consistent with the Biblical account.[Neibuhr, Biblical Researches, vol.i,pg.113-114] They have even found a tri-lingual inscription that further illustrates the accuracy of the translation into english made by the original archeologist.[Pierce Butler, Djebel Maghara, 1860]
May seem like a lot of info-- but there is more! The point is that the events happen and history proves it-- no scholar can look at the evidence and deny it's existance-- you can deny God all you want but the evidence proves that the events recorded in the Bible are accurate and did in fact take place. That conclusion does go to support the existence of God as well but the fact is the Bible is accurate.
Hardly. There are some things that have absolutely no Archeological support, such as the exodus from Egypt and the extensive kingdom of King David and Solomon, the Walls of Jerico being destroyed by the Israelites, and even the claims of conquest of the Caananites by the Israelites. There are also many things in the bible that are contrary to Geological evidence, such as the flood and creation account. That's not to say that the bible doesn't have some or even much of it's history correct. But that is no evidence that it is inspired by god.Much of what you are denying happening has much evidence. Perhaps you have never heard of it before but as I read the things you list off I can't help but be amazed! One of the books I am looking at at the moment to type up this information for you includes the evidence for virtually every topic you are speaking of! The evidence does exist my friend and I would like to offer you a book.
You strike me as an intellectual honest kinda person so I hope you will consider the evidence and be interested in information on the claims you have made. I'm not asking you to neccessarily believe in God but if it's lack of evidence that is your reason- that really isn't a valid reason after researching the evidence. Hope to hear from you & have a great day <>< Angie
Maybe it is like when you think of how huge the house was that you lived in when you were a kid only to go back as an adult and discover how small everything really was!.
Angie,
If you think that insects really have four legs, then I suppose you can honestly say the bible is 100% accurate when it comes to science. Look it up, it's in Leviticus somewhere.
What I am asking for is the name/author of the book you are recommending. I can order it on my own. thanks for the offer, though. I did notice that the sources you presented were from the 19th century. Nothing really wrong with that, but I am a bit skeptical of claims made back at that time that don't seem to be supported by modern science. Remember archaeologists who wanted to prove the bible correct made incorrect claims about the walls of Jerico in the past only to be corrected by later, more accurate examination.
rem
"We all do no end of feeling, and we mistake it for thinking." - Mark Twain
Amazing,
The reason it is often said that no evidence exists for the exodus is because people have been looking for it in the wrong place. They have been looking in Egypt's Sinai Peninsula. But the apostle Paul clearly said that Mount Sinai is in "Arabia." (Gal. 4:25) I highly recommend the book "In Search of the Mountain of God: The Discovery of the Real Mt. Sinai" by Bob Cornuke and David Halbrook. In it you will find that much evidence can be found for the Israelites' exodus from Egypt, when we look for it in the right place. This book is not junk science. It's findings and conclusions have been endorsed by many highly respected archeologists and biblical scholars. You can find it at Amazon.com, here : http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0805420525/qid=1014750955/br=3-2/ref=br_lfncs_b_2/002-8619406-8669652
No remains? You think those are rocks that the Palestinians are thowing at Israeli soldiers? think again! It's pertrified mana!
Sorry guys-- I haven't checked on this thread in awhile -- I'm not purposely ignoring you
Rem-- all questions deserve an answer but I can't recall the insect passage you are refering to-- I'll see if insect is in the concordnance. Many of the references are 19th century and later but that does not effect the dating of the evidences uncovered. The world has not always been interested or active in digging up artifacts and studying archeology & anthropology-- They had to start sometime Also, though most of the archeological work has been done in the past 200-300 years we do have ancient historical documents that also verify the existance of some of these evidences they continually find today. For instance there are old historical documents that speak of the sinai inscriptions existing and being seen.
The particular book I was refering to is:
The Signature of God by Grant R. Jeffrey and I think you can get it from any book store or BarnesAndNoble.com. I did get mine through a christian book retailer though. It's not my only source but it contains a decently succinct case for evidences. It is written by a christian but the evidences are documented-- I only say that because some people think the christian sources are automatically biased.
Other interesting reads are:
Jeffrey has also written a book called the Handwritting of God which is about the Bible codes. Josh McDowell is another good author with a two book set called Evidence that demands a Verdict. That one reads like a legal briefing prepared for the arguement for the God of Christianity. In The Beggining by Walt Brown is also a great evidence read for creationism.
Adonai,
I hate to break it to you, but your sources are quite bad. Not only that, but to accept such sources as authorative, or even respectable makes you a credulous person. I'm going to steal a book review off an Internet newsgroup (alt.religion.christianity 2/21/200) by "Agkistrodon":
The following is a fairly short review of Grant R. Jeffrey's book "The
Signature of God". This book has been promoted as an impressive proof
of the existence of god and, specifically, the Judaeo-Xian
incarnation. It is not any such thing. I read it in response to the
admonition of Obiwan on A.R.M. and was absolutely "amazed." For one
of the most characteristic (and easily refuted) "arguments" Jeffrey
makes, just skip to the part about the Pleiades. ----------------------------------------- Obiwan has recommended a book entitled "The Signature of God" as a
source for information on proofs and validations not merely for the
existence of "God" but specifically for the Christian God and his
supposed bioreplicate Jesus Christ. I picked up this book at Barnes
and Noble and began to read it in the store. At first, I was so
appalled by it that I put it back on the shelf and proceeded to the
children's books section. I reconsidered it after picking up "My
First Book of Atheism" for my 6 YO and went back and got it. I read
it in about an hour and a half (all 359 pages of text) because it
seems to be written at about a 6th grade level. Here is an
evaluation: an absolute horror and perversion of reason, science,
logic, history, and religion. The most immediate thing that strikes a person just scanning this book
is how often the writer uses such words as "amazing", "surprising",
"incredible", "fascinating", and others of that type. It seems that
he is not so much trying to convince his readers that the things that
follow are such but that he is trying to convince himself. I am
reminded of the old "whistling through a graveyard" image; the author
(Grant R. Jeffrey) is so unconvinced of his own view that he has to
build its strength by puffery. Not a very good strategy when one is
dealing with people capable of seeing through the attempt. Dogs may
raise hackles and birds may fluff out their feathers to appear bigger
and more intimidating to rivals but the trick falls flat to anyone who
has the capacity to think critically about what he has read. In
short, when Jeffrey says something is "astonishing" or "amazing"; it's
always routine stuff. A review of the references is in order when one starts to read a book
that has references and this one does. There are 65 references in the
bibliography and that sounds good, doesn't it? Well, of these only 25
are from anything after 1960 and about 20 or so are from the 19th
Century. Of the 25 post-1960 references, almost all are from
Christian fundamentals presses and by well known (and well refuted)
authors such as Henry Morris and Josh McDowell. I found no references
to books or papers by authors (even Christian authors!) who take a
more critical view than Jeffrey. He has culled the cheap tracts and
considers them as his sources. Not very honest at all. To add to the
stupidity, Jeffrey quotes some sociological studies that show a change
in attitudes toward the basic Christian tenets among pastors but the
does not include that in his bibliography. Very baaaad scholarship. Let's go on to some claims made and see what the real story is.
First, I will pass over the pseudo-archaeological stuff in the early
chapters. There are a number of references to inscription supposedly written on stone by the fleeing Hebrews escaping from Egypt with the Pharaoh hot after them. Of course, these are known to be inscriptions that were made far far later and some that are attributed to Hebrews are in fact Egyptian graffiti left over from quarrying gangs. Had Jeffrey consulted work done in the Twentieth Century, he would have known that but all the references in these chapters are to pious 19th Century sources. Clearly, because they are the ones that he can accept and, more importantly, use to deceive the credulous. Another claim
concerns references to Jesus (ah, supposed references) in the Dead Sea
Scrolls. But, here again, all Jeffrey can do is retrospectively assert
that the reference is to HIS candidate. A single scroll refers to the
putting to death of a community leader and Jeffrey hops on it quickly
to say that it means Jesus although it could mean virtually any
political person who got executed for something. It's a fragment but
good enough for Jeffrey. After all, NFNE, right? The claims of scientific proof are easy to dispense with. One wonders
what this guy could conceivably know about science and the answer is
"Nothing." Jeffrey continues to use his substitution trick over and
over and over again. He is "amazed" that science has discovered that
the human body consists only of the same elements that make up the
soil. To him, this is a signature of his god but it also is
explainable in terms of evolution in a simple biologic sense. We are
part of the earth. We eat foods that grow from it or are derived from
those that eat what grows from the ground. Are we not to expect that
this is normal? Indeed, the signature of god would be the other way
around. If we are looking for something to make humans special (and
not just the apes we are) would not a god provide maybe some special
element or some other hint of the specialness of his chosen species?
Instead, we find many elements totally useless in biological systems
that litter the ground or are not even found on earth and have to be
made. If there is anything approximating a signature of specialness,
it is that the ground and its dirt is this god's chosen and meaningful
object. It, at least, does contain special things. He goes on to a cosmological argument and falls flat on his fat face
(it is fat). He states that the steady-state theory was in "total
contradiction to the Word of God " but fails to note that SS
cosmologists who were Christian did not think it so. He considers
Newton to be the paragon of physicists (because Newton was a believer,
not because of his physics) but Newton was pretty much a steady
stater. Jeffrey fails to note that Newton went to extreme lengths of
speculation about gravity to maintain the steady state of the
universe. The reference is not obscure, Hawking cites it in hi
Cambridge Lectures. He then concludes that the Big Bang is a signature
of his god because it seems consistent with the notion of an instant
of creation (but it also puts restrictions on his god that Jeffrey
doesn't seem to know about and would howl about if he did). Jeffrey
says that astronomers have failed to come up with a theory to explain
the earth. This is so much poop that I'll just pass it out by saying
that there are very good theories that explain the earth but Jeffrey
doesn't want anyone to know about them because his god might lose some
authority.. This guy goes on to say (without a single attribution) that scientists
doubted the existence of water in space. Where did he get this? He
doesn't say but it doesn't matter because it is completely untrue.
Water in space has long been accepted by astronomers and
planetologists. It's simple to make and there are lots and lots of
its building blocks out there. Another lie for Jesus, Mr. Jeffrey?
Next, Jeffrey confuses the various kinds of ice that exist in the
universe. He seems to think that the word must refer to water ice
wherever it is used. Let's pass on to the next howler. Jeffrey asserts that the seventh day
resting of his god somehow "accounts for the First Law of Conservation
of Energy." What? How does it do so? He doesn't explain. This man
later attempts to reconcile Luke's contradictory statements that
Christ will come in the day time but, later in the book, that he will
come at night (this is Jeffrey's interpretation) by saying that this
is possible because the world is round and has daytime and night time
in different parts at the same time. The really funny thing is that he
says that Luke could not have known "this scientific fact" when he
wrote the book. Of course, the writer of Luke COULD easily have known
the world was round (everyone else did) and he obviously had seen the
sun come up (assume he was not blind) and he knew that there were
lands to the east beyond where the sun had arisen (this was three
centuries after Alexander hand been as far as the Ganges) where the
sun had obviously arisen earlier. Any fool (except this one) could
put one and one together and get the answer. Before ending this, I want to address the part of the book which
Obiwan cited concerning the number of stars in the Pleiades. This
part is the most blatant and damnable lie that I can find amidst all
the others. Jeffrey says that the early translations of Amos refer to
"the seven stars" and later translated as "the Pleiades." Okay,
that's fine. But then, he says that this is curious because there are
"six stars that could be seen by the naked eye in the constellation
Pleiades." He goes on, "Now, however, modern telescopes have revealed
the existence of a seventh star in Pleiades; it is so dim that only a
telescope can detect it." These are absolute lies (and I cannot over
emphasize the word "lies" no matter how much Obiwan wishes it were not
so)! The fact is that anyone with 20/20 correctable vision can see
seven stars in Pleiades on a good night and some people with very good
acuity can see as many as nine and this is common knowledge that one
can verify for oneself merely by looking. One can also examine
photographs taken through telescopes and count something like 20 good
sized stars in the constellation and many more background stars. How
come God didn't know that? It is also of interest that despite the
fact that there are some very interesting astronomical structures in
the Southern Hemisphere skies, but the Bible makes no mention of them.
Not much of a signature. I will ignore the obtuse and absurd arguments postulated to prove that
Hebrews had been given sophisticated public and personal health
information and the notions of post hoc "prophecy" fulfillment. The
remainder of the book is a rehash of the usual Bible Codes hooey that
has been discussed and thoroughly refuted on ARM and elsewhere. Bottom line, save your money. This book is nothing and Obiwan should
be ashamed that he has fallen for this kind of crap.Agkistrodon[quote]
Though this is just an informal review, I think you get the picture that your source "Signature of God" is quite bad scholarship. In fact, all of your other sources are pretty lame too. I'm sorry, but I don't put my trust in writers who purposely use old, outdated scholarship, take scientist's quotes out of context, and out and out make things up. I tend to favor well researched, up to date, honest scholarship done by people who don't have an agenda to prove god. I really can't believe you can even stomach the Bible Code crap? Do you have a BS detector?
Maybe I'll pick the book up at a library for a laugh.
rem
[quote]"We all do no end of feeling, and we mistake it for thinking." - Mark Twain
Rem,
You and I have disagreed about a few things but not this one. I have a copy of this book. It was given to me. I cringed with embarassment for Christianity nearly everytime I tuned a page while reading it. It is pure garbage from beginning to end.
