by The Quiet One 754 Replies latest watchtower bible
The natural world appears to be organised to maximise the suffering of animals - I'm not sure about this. Maybe the natural world is merely indifferent to the suffering of animals?
I do agree with you - the natural world, aka reality, is a huge problem for theists.
Thank you Coffy, for the clarification. My understanding is:
Full Definition of THEISM. : Belief in the existence of a god or gods; specifically: belief in the existence of one God viewed as the creative source of the human race and the world who transcends yet is immanent in the world.
The line between Creationist and Evolutionist has always been wide, even though the big bang theory is now coming into question by your own science community to reflect what the Bible has been saying all along, about God having no beginning or end, Revelation 1:8 .The science community of late draws parallels to that same assertion now.
But since this is a democratic forum, perhaps I miss read the context.
Whenindoubt - Science offers no crumbs of comfort to theism whatsoever.
LUHE - What I mean is that not far short of 100% of animals die bad deaths of predation, starvation, cold or disease. Most creatures are "wonderfully designed" to inflict the maximum pain on other creatures.
More than 99% of every species that has ever existed went extinct.
Man...Who trusted God was love indeed
And love Creation’s final law-
Tho’ Nature, red in tooth and claw
With ravine, shriek’d against his creed-
Alfred Lord Tennyson
When thinking for an answer one can feel hopeless and defeated and helpless. I try not to think about this because it is very painful.
Closing your eyes doesn't make it go away. You're experience the pain of attempting to reconcile what you clearly know to be bad with the concept of woshipping a god you've been told is love is clearly a blood god of death.
One tries to find some reason some justification but it cannot be done. One way to view this is: God knows and who am I to judge God.
That's not a way to view it. That's a way to avoid having to think about the obvious and irrefutable contradiction. It's called cognitive dissonance.
This has been a construct for decades for instance with the PETA project, Environmental protection is one of the urgent current problems facing mankind today. But it’s ironic that mankind is the one who pollutes his own health, and kill the life of all beings in this Earth. The reason is that we are unable to live in harmony with other people, animals and vegetation.
God did not design the animal kingdom or this universe to be out of sync with man, but rather to live in harmony with him. However that went away by the sins of man. Man’s execution of pain in unthinkable horrors has brought forth the protection that even the animal kingdom has had to endure and adjust to. My suggestion is with all things not equal, GOD will balance it out in the end, or as you suggest naturally. However as you pointed out, species have gone extinct as science dictate’s by natural selection would be a concern for a creationist by inheritance of a lack of appreciation that the end of this life cycle is here and is programmed to be rebooted as this life cycle becomes unsustainable.
"(The saint's) consideration extends even to animals
and to things, because in every
creature he sees a gift of God's love, and does not wish to wound that love by
treating His gifts with negligence or indifference."
— Fr Dimitru Staniloae (Prayer and Holiness)
The evil Yahweh god of Abraham was the same evil entity that created all organic life and suffering is what comes to my mind. Being a huge animal lover I cannot even comprehend the suffering animals go thru in nature through predation and survival in the worst of weather conditions, as well as at the hand of humans. Evil is what evil does. Now wonder Watchtower is so empty and heartless. It emulates the evil Yahweh god they worship.
Shana
I am very sorry, it wouldn't let me save when I edited that post, and I lost it all. Here is the cleaned up version, hope it was worth it..
[Fisherman, I appreciate your honesty in admitting that there is no justification for the amount of suffering that animals have had to endure. You have clearly given the topic some thought.]
FISHERMAN said "..who am I to judge God?"
Who are you to judge? Let me tell you something, YOU CAN JUDGE the God that you have chosen to believe in.
In fact, you already have done, if you think about it.
As a believer, you have trusted your judgement before, and you are trusting your ability to make a judgement every day that you continue to believe in him.
Can I ask you some questions, please?
Do you believe in a God?
Then you have already judged that he exists. (perhaps based on your experiences, and your view of the physical evidence that is available).
Do you believe in a God that is good?
If so, then you have already judged him, in a moral sense.
If you pray to and worship a God, you must see him as kind and just, otherwise you would not worship him?
That is how you judge his character.
Do you think that God's creation is good and worthy of praise?
If so, you have already judged his works.
You don't believe in a callous, malicious, incompetent God, do you? So you trust your judgement, as that is the basis for your beliefs.
A theist has (at the very least) judged that God exists, and that he has created us. Generally speaking, they often believe that he has good qualities. Also, they have generally judged for themselves that his creative works were good, at least to some extent.
These are judgements that many believers in a God have made, for different reasons.
So why are they cautious of judging the seemingly unloving qualities of God, or anything that makes it seem that God (if he existed) does not care for his creatures?
You can only judge whether the God that YOU have CHOSEN to believe in exists based on the available evidence, and the experiences of yourself and others throughout history.
There is no evidence of a God that cares for each of his creatures, and countless experiences that prove beyond doubt that he is either indifferent to the immense suffering of so many animals throughout history, or he designed them in that way and chooses to see them suffer.
Cofty brought up the point of species extinction. Would a caring God have allowed that to happen? Or would a caring God sit and watch as animals starve to death and die of cancer?
What evidence is there that he cares for, or takes care of, animals at all?
Take a look at the God you have chosen to believe in, with his total lack of concern for animals and so-called 'lesser species'... and decide whether he/she/it is worthy of worship, if a God were to even exist.
TO ALL THEISTS WHO BELIEVE IN A PERSONAL GOD, AND ESPECIALLY BELIEVERS IN THE 'LOVING' GOD OF THE BIBLE:
You don't need to go along with the views of your family or friends.
Unless you were brainwashed or brought up in a high control religious group, you've already judged for yourself that God exists, and also that he created us and cares about what happens to his creatures.
You have no doubt already used your own judgement to decide that God is good, and has created all things in a loving way, in order that they can live a good life according to his fair and just standards... unless you merely worship him out of fear.
Now take another step.
Look at the countless examples of animals that have suffered and died throughout history without doing anything wrong or 'sinful', then use YOUR OWN sense of morality to make YOUR OWN independent judgement of YOUR concept of God, no matter which one that you've chosen to believe in.
Write a list of your morals and principles, such as never leaving a person or animal to suffer and die when you could act, for example.
Would you cure an animal of cancer if you had the cure? Would you feel compelled to rescue an animal in pain from being abused?
Remember..
There is never any need to hold back from JUDGING either the character, morality, or the potential existence of the particular God that you believe in.. Because at some point, you already have done.
Unless, of course, you are afraid to face the conclusion that you may come to.
Food for thought, however some assumption’s made here are confused from Judgment to acknowledgement. The other assertion would follow in faith. The hypotheses you propose here is ambiguous. In the 80’s many people blamed animal cruelty on God since PETA was attempting to terminate the use of living animals for the fur lines in Europe. The extinction that science uses is based on natural selection. Creationist believe in a just and loving God. How can they accomplish that? By faith to know that all the evil that has befallen humanity is out of his own design and arrogance. God created man as a perfect being. The free choice that man made millenniums ago was his own pitfall, just as it has been with any of God’s creation that has gone extinct because of its own savagery.
Therefore as explained by coffy that doesn’t believe in God and is outright wishing to blame the cumulative destruction for something on GOD, God has become the easiest target, and as you state, that has never been seen. The paradox would be, how much of an active past have you seen to have Judged God. For those that didn’t understand the word ACTIVE, not literal meaning, but LIFE, a living past life, to actually have seen the transformation of human existence. The bible dictates that at one point man had direct interaction with God, yet that has become nonexistent in our life time, does that mean God doesn’t exist anymore? NO Theism is specifically: belief in the existence of one God viewed as the creative source of the human race and the world who transcends yet is immanent in the world. Your assumption of a loving God allowing the evil that has befallen mankind to include the animal kingdom is not for the lack of love but to allow mankind to revert back to its basic principles of perfection, however painful it is to see.
The premise in all of this would be to stop blaming God for all the wrong that people do in their daily lives, blame yourselves, don’t judge others, stick to your principles good or bad, allow others to do the same, and one day Gods judgment will come, rather it’s in this life span or another generations burden as read from Noah’s example. Let those who don’t believe and laugh at God and corrupt others to the same destructive thinking to know what judgment day will be.
ACTIVE: Meaning
2. Being in a state of existence, progress, or motion
"however some assumption’s made here are confused from Judgment to acknowledgement."
If the so-called caring God of popular theism is merely a construct of your mind and does not exist, the word acknowledgement wouldn't apply.
Can you explain what you mean?
