Atheism 2.0

by Qcmbr 384 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Terry
    Terry

    Atheism leaves room for any god for whom evidence can be presented might be more accurate?

    I'm afraid I should point out this is a de facto contradiction. A=without theist=god(s)

    Atheism does NOT leave room.

    Why? Atheism is a conclusion a priori.

    Honesty inquiry cannot reasonably commence with a conclusion in advance. When you leave room for evidence to be gathered you must first take the position of ignorance of the final conclusion. That is why I choose to identify myself as Agnostic.

    Skpetical Inquiry seems to me an honest starting point to gathering evidence.

    I'm not picking a fight. I'm just trying to be clear.

  • Qcmbr
    Qcmbr

    Maybe that's just semantics - I think that once you get to absolutes you've created the first commandments and that's exactly the opposite of where I want to be. I see atheism as the inclusive rejection of gods/magic ideas that are presented without evidence and no more than that rather than the exclusive stance that there are no gods regardless of evidence (which is a rather more religious idea.)

    I don't even know exactly what I really think right now. Which is fun.

  • Terry
    Terry

    Maybe that's just semantics

    WORDS have meaning. (the way guns have bullets)

    What words we use are very important. (where you point the gun)

    We cannot even think without words.

    The more accurate our vocabulary the more accurate our thoughts become if properly used.

    I'm not lecturing you, by the way, I'm just getting to the essence of the discussion itself.

    Agnosticism is an admission of "not knowning".

    Admitting you "don't know" is a humble starting position.

    Atheism, on the other hand, begins with the conclusion (no gods) in advance. This is not intellectual honesty, imho.

    Skeptical Inquiry is certainly more rational than mere Faith following the "things heard."

    We've both been down that road and where did it get us?

    A very natural reaction to having our World View destroyed (discovering our Faith and Belief are founded on lies) is to jump into the

    oppositie mindset. This is natrual but illogical.

    A middle road is more prudent simply because we need to "allow" room for evidence to be gathered before an examination is made and --then--only then, conclusions are drawn.

    Science is trial and error.

    Religion is dogma:conclusions in advance admitting to no skepticism.

    Science eventually produced technology, advancement and human benefit.

    Religion is stagnant and immediately defends through wielding threats and stimulating fear.

    My personal opinion is that Atheism can only be honestly discussed if you don't take sides in advance.

    Sam Harris begs the question, imho, rather dishonestly by trying to eat his cake and have it too. He says:

    In fact, "atheism" is a term that should not even exist. No one ever needs to identify himself as a "non-astrologer" or a "non-alchemist." We do not have words for people who doubt that Elvis is still alive or that aliens have traversed the galaxy only to molest ranchers and their cattle. Atheism is nothing more than the noises reasonable people make in the presence of unjustified religious beliefs

  • N.drew
    N.drew
    We cannot even think without words.

    I don't think this is true. There are two reasons I should say so. Sometimes I know what I'm thinking, but I can't think of the word. And before language I am sure creatures thought.

    And a third possible reason why "w e cannot even think without words" is not true is a nimals seem to think simple thoughts. For instance "I love you", and "I want to go out".

  • Qcmbr
    Qcmbr

    I agree that words have meaning but context shifts meaning dramatically and I think that Sam might be closer to the truth, the term 'atheism' itself might be meaningless unless given a context. The dictionary definition is no more atomically accurate than the entry for christian which actually needs the brand attached to allow full meaning to be understood. The closer you get to try and define a meaning by stripping its various meanings of context the further you get from the idea - methinks.

    Atheism is just a term but it is as alike to a bullet as the human mind is to a gun - i.e. not alike at all. If you so wish to tie my use of the word to a narrow legalistic definition so be it. Please substitute my usage of the word 'atheism' for the statement I made above - treat it like shorthand. I don't start from the position that there are no gods (in fact I've mused several times that an inevitable conclusion of evolution is godlike knowledge and godlike power ergo - by one definition - gods! - we could be considered gods to our forefathers and likewise our descendents to us.) but I do say that in order to accept any god or magical power there must be manifestation that is testable. In other words I reject all stories about magic pending proof.

    This means I'm a long way from ordering death or mandating behaviour by law as it seems many try to suggest atheism does.

  • N.drew
    N.drew

    My cat just thought a thought! We have an indoor cat. She has always been indoors. We have another cat that goes out. So naturally the indoor cat wants to go out. Just a minute ago I had the door open to talk to my husband clearing snow off his car to bring it into the garage to make room for the plow. Men???? Haha They're funny! The cat scooted by me and stopped. I could almost see her thinking. She was out! But she "thought" it not a good idea to stay out, so she turned around and went right back in! Lala! Cat thought. No words!

  • breakfast of champions
    breakfast of champions

    QCMBR - thanks for the tedtalks recommendation -- downloading it to my iPod right now.

    I think the term humanism is far more positive and accessible to most people than atheism. It connotes an interest in humanity and individuals rather than just a disbelief in the supernatural.

    Will watch the video later.

  • Qcmbr
    Qcmbr

    I think that's what PZ is trying to get at - naked atheism is seen as a negative rejection of ideas when in reality it describes an approach to life that has to be learnt (so babies are no more atheist than they are christian) , understood and has reasoning behind it (in other words you aren't really an atheist until you can explain why you disbelieve in certain propositions.) In short atheism is much more positive and full of potential moral goodness than maybe portrayed. My dilemma is as I originally stated - how to structure that potential once I've binned the best organised structure I had.

    Thinking about what the term atheist means is really important (thanks Terry) and I'm still certain I don't know. I've been so busy looking over my shoulder at where I was to realise where I'm going.

  • N.drew
    N.drew

    Atheism, as I understand it, means I will not look to a greater power to lead me. So really a believer can be an atheist because somebody who believes there is a god can live their life like there isn't a god and do as they please. Matthew 21:28-31

    "But what do you think? A man had two sons, and he came to the first and said, 'Son, go work today in the vineyard.' "And he answered, 'I will not'; but afterward he regretted it and went. "The man came to the second and said the same thing; and he answered, 'I will, sir'; but he did not go. "Which of the two did the will of his father?" They said, "The first." Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you that the tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the kingdom of God before you".

    The way I read that scripture I can see, because of my little patience, an atheist is better than a false believer. But the Bible does not concern "itself" with atheists. Why would it do that? The Bible is really about false believers. They are much worse than atheists.

  • botchtowersociety
    botchtowersociety

    It's better to be a atheist who lives a good life than a believer who lives an evil one.

    IMHO

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