slimfatboy wrote: "Yeah that's fine, but why report it as if it was an increase? It would have been easy enough to add the figures together, and work out the increase over the previous year of the two areas combined over both periods. In fact I think that is what they did when they added Alaska, so there is a precedent.
Personally I am inclined blame incompetence rather than mendacity, but you never know.
I am open to the idea that JWs may continue to grow well, although I would prefer if they declined, or better still imploded in some dramatic fashion. But regardless of the way the numbers go the fact nevertheless remains that JWs teach a lot of nonsense that many rightly find insulting to their sense of ethics/aesthetics as well as their intelligence."
Yes, but the full number is the one that is always reported by the WCC's Yearbook of American and Canadian Churches, which explains the discrepancy in the figures between the JW Yearbook and the YACC stats. The WCC stats, which usually come out in Feb., are always a year behind. So I think including all the US states in the total figure is an improvement. Anyway, the Witness figures only include active publishers and does not include the even faster growing number of those that regularly attend their Bible meetings. Many who are joining, according to my conversations with people who have been attending regularly, have come to believe that the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses teach the truth of the Bible...a basic teaching is the identity of God and Jesus. Some who were members of other churches have come to find the true Jesus of the Bible, who is really the Son of God, and have come to know and give praise to the God and Father of Jesus Christ, whose name is Jehovah. (Ephe. 1:3; John 3:16, 36; 1 John 4:8-14; John 17:3, 2; Exo. 6:3; Exo. 3:14, 15). And I agree with them...but I certainly disagree with your point of view that they "teach a lot of nonsense". Instead I believe they represent the true Christian congregation with the same teachings that were taught in 1st century congregation.
2011 Watchtower publisher statistics with analysis
by jwfacts 220 Replies latest watchtower bible
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davidl7
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jwfacts
davidl7 - Why are you quoting the WCC figures ahead of the Watchtower's. The percentages they included of 4.37 are inaccurate. Don't you trust the Watchtower figures, or are you trying to spread inaccurate information to support your claims?
Further, it does not matter which method of counting numbers is used as we have been looking at percentage increases. If you prefer to take the figure of memorial attendees so as to provide a more generous view of the number of JWs, for decades the growth has been consistent with their growth in publishers, and hovers around 2.6 times the number of publishers.
Regarding the internet not affecting growth, there has been much discussion about this that you must have overlooked. The growth has fallen dramatically over the last 2 decades.
Your comment that " most eventually came to the conclusion that the Chrstian Congregation of Jehovah' Witnesses represent the 1st century Christianity as taught by Jesus and his apostles" is farcial. You should have put a smiley face after it to show you are not so deluded that actually believe that comment. It is irrelevant as well, as there are people joining all religions with the conviction they are the truth, but it does not make it so.
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davidl7
jw"facts" - Perhaps I did not express myself clearly regarding the method of counting numbers...Actually both the WCC and WT are both accurate....however, as I was attempting to point out, throughout the years the WCC US number included both Alaska and Hawaii. In the past the JW Yearbook did not include Hawaii and Alaska in their US figures, as they were counted separately. This explained why the WCC US number seemed higher to some, since they did not realize that the WCC number included all 50 states, while the JW Yearbook listed them separately...that is all I was trying to say. I think it is better that the JW Yearbook is including all 50 states in their count.
You may not think that the method of counting members matters - but I think it is crucial to understand how church members are counted. Many who have studied the Witnesses and have been involved in conducting surveys on the religious landscape, point out that the WT method of counting members is extremely conservative. Witnesses only count those that actively preach and report their preaching activity. They just don't count anyone that regulary attend their Bible meetings. This is unlike other churches, which count inactive members, in some cases dead members, members that have left, etc....I think that information is crucial to know, especially for a statisician. Surveys involving the religious landscape in many countries always show a number that is at least double the official membership number published by the Witnesses. The complaint I read from professional statisticians and sociologists is NOT that the Witnesses overcount their members, but that they UNDERCOUNT their members. But that may be based on the fact that the Witnesses do not use the same generous method of counting even inactive or dead members as the churches do. One group seeking "honesty in numbers" is now using a different method of counting members and will refrain from counting members that have passed away or are no longer active in their church. That group is the 7th Day Adventists...they should be commended for modifying their statistics, which according to the auditor will result in a lower membership number...but even then, the 7th Day Adventists will be using a more "generous method" of counting members. See:
I have read some who hold the point of view that the Witnesses growth has slow down, thanks to the Internet. But I don't really buy into their argument...it is true growth has slow down, but unlike, other groups, it has continued to grow. Other groups have not only slowed down, but are in decline. Recent news reports, point out that young people are leaving the Evangelical churches in droves....did the Internet do that...or could it be some other variables causing the decline...what about the mainline churches...they have declined dramatically in the last 2 decades...can you blame just the Internet on that...or are there other causes for that? Christendom in Europe has gone down the tubes, if the news and reports published with the last 5 years are to be believed.... an yet biblical Christianity (aka Witnesses) have at least maintained or grow in most European...unlike the churches in Europe, the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses are not on the verge of extinction...And as I pointed out earlier, Witnesses use perhaps the most conservative method of counting their members...but still show some growth.
I am certainly not deluded. My conclusion is based on an extensive study of the Bible and I firmly believe that Bible teaches that Jesus only found 1 Christian congregation that were to be witnesses of both Jesus and Jehovah. The book of Acts does not show the existence of several churches. The letters by the apostles warned against secretarianism and taught that their would be 1 faith...the NT warned against false teachings and agains those teaching another Christ. I get very happy when I hear of new ones coming into the Truth, joining the ranks of the true followers of Jesus. I visited a different congregation and spoke to a new family attending the congregation. They were Catholic, but then joined the Pentecostals. From the Pentecostals they learned from the Bible that you cannot pray to statues and that the Pope is not infallible. Then they became 7th Day Adventists. The couple explained to me that due to personal Bible reading, they came to the conclusion that the soul dies, and when comparing Bible encyclopedias, they also came to the conclusion that hell is mainly the grave, and the word translated hellfire is really Gehenna, which they now understood Jesus used as a symbol for eternal death...so they joined the Adventists. Further Bible reading lead them to believe that Jesus is really the Son of God and not part of a Trinity...now they are regularly meeting with the Witnesses and have left the Adventist Church...see that Truth from the Bible is not taught in all churches...and many are now finding the Truth...I would not be surprised if in the very near future the growth percentage of the Witnesses will grow dramatically as all those who are joining us become baptized and start sharing with us fully in sharing and preaching the good news of God's Kingdom.
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jwfacts
David, it is unlikely that there will be dramatic increase, since the long term patterns are very consistent. Memorial attendees is growing at a rate that closely aligns with the growth of publishers and has for many decades.
"Witnesses only count those that actively preach and report their preaching activity. They just don't count anyone that regulary attend their Bible meetings. This is unlike other churches, which count inactive members, in some cases dead members, members that have left, etc"
Actually, Witnesses count everything - publishers, meeting attendance, memorial attendees, pioneers et cetera. The reason they report only publishers as Jehovah's witnesses as, as only they will survive Armagedon. Their conservative reporting is actually a method of control.
As far as emotional stories of people coming to the religion, it is nothing unusual, as these experiences are parrotted by every religion. Many religions also claim to be the only true representation of the Early Church. And tens of thousands leave following the Watchtower Society each year and join other Churches, who then use the same false line of reasoning that you are using to indicate this somehow shows they are truth.
Many claim extensive study of the Bible, myself included, and how come to different conclusions to yourself. I certainly doubt your claim of extensive Bible study and would suggest you have done extensive study of Watchtower publications that highlight a narrow range of Scriptures. It is impossible to Study the Bible extensively and arrive at what the Watchtower teaches.
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slimboyfat
I am certainly not deluded. My conclusion is based on an extensive study of the Bible and I firmly believe that Bible teaches that Jesus only found 1 Christian congregation that were to be witnesses of both Jesus and Jehovah.
Well you can make a good case for this or that theology based on the Bible if you want. But whether you choose to believe the Bible or not, and whether you believe it teaches a Trinity or not, the situation remains that the organization of JWs does not allow you the dignity of freedom to explore these issues freely. It forbids members from considering the works of former members and it does not tolerare open discussion of alternative points of view at its meetings or even in private settings. If you doubt this then please tell your local elders that you are engaging in discussions on this site. In the end freedom is more important than doctrine, and you come to realise that doctrines whose legitimacy can only be maintained by the authoritarian control of thought and debate imposed by the organization turn out not to be worth defending after all.
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cedars
davidl7 - now that you have completed an extensive study of the Bible with the aid of Watchtower publications, I would urge you to undertake an extensive study of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society with the aid of the internet. I know this goes against everything you are taught, but if what you have is "The Truth", then what have you got to lose? Surely everything you have been taught should stand up to the closest of scrutiny? Also, the very fact that you are openly participating on this forum shows that you have a degree of bravado in engaging in dialogue with "mentally diseased" apostates rather than heeding the Society's instructions to refrain from doing so. I commend you for your courage, but I think this courage could be channeled into more productive intellectual pursuits.
If you can't stomach the carefully researched information presented on jwfacts.com then why not start off with a few simple searches on Wikipedia, which you must surely consider to be an unbiased third party website?
Here is one comment that is made concerning the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses, which may provide you with some food for thought:
The Governing Body describes itself as the representative and "spokesman" for God's "faithful and discreet slave class" (the approximately 11,800 remaining anointed Jehovah's Witnesses) who are collectively said to be God's "prophet"and "channel for new spiritual light".The Governing Body is said to provide "spiritual food" for Jehovah's Witnesses worldwide on behalf of the "slave class".
The Governing Body does not seek advice or approval from any anointed Witnesses other than high-ranking members at the Brooklyn headquarters when formulating policy and doctrines or approving material for publications and conventions. In 2009, The Watchtower indicated that the dissemination of "new spiritual light" is the responsibility of only "a limited number" of the "slave class", asking: "Are all these anointed ones throughout the earth part of a global network that is somehow involved in revealing new spiritual truths? No." In 2010 the society explained that "deep truths" were discerned by "responsible representatives" of the "faithful and discreet slave class" at the religion's headquarters; those views are then considered by the entire Governing Body before it makes doctrinal decisions. In August 2011, the Governing Body cast doubt on other members' claims of being anointed, stating that "A number of factors—including past religious beliefs or even mental or emotional imbalance—might cause some to assume mistakenly that they have the heavenly calling." The Governing Body also stated that "we have no way of knowing the exact number of anointed ones on earth; nor do we need to know", and that it "does not maintain a global network of anointed ones."
The vast majority of Witnesses who profess to be anointed have no authority to contribute to the development or change of doctrines. Anointed Witnesses are instructed to remain modest and avoid "wildly speculating about things that are still unclear," instead waiting for God to reveal his purposesin The Watchtower.
If you feel really brave, I would thoroughly recommend that you read the book Crisis of Conscience for free online. Again, you doubtless have heard many myths about this book, i.e. that it was written by a "mentally diseased" former member of the Governing Body. However, after just the first few pages you will find that the late Raymond Franz was in no way bitter or hostile towards Jehovah's Witnesses or the Society, but wrote candidly of his experience while serving on the Governing Body. Again, you can decide for yourself whether his words have the "ring of truth". If they don't, then you have lost nothing. If they do, then you might learn something.
Cedars
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davidl7
JW "Facts" wrote:
"Actually, Witnesses count everything - publishers, meeting attendance, memorial attendees, pioneers et cetera. The reason they report only publishers as Jehovah's witnesses as, as only they will survive Armagedon. Their conservative reporting is actually a method of control."
Response -
Yes, I agree...what I am saying is that the number they use and quote as the official membership figure is the one that counts only the active publishers or preachers of the good news.
JW "Facts" wrote:
"As far as emotional stories of people coming to the religion, it is nothing unusual, as these experiences are parrotted by every religion. Many religions also claim to be the only true representation of the Early Church. And tens of thousands leave following the Watchtower Society each year and join other Churches, who then use the same false line of reasoning that you are using to indicate this somehow shows they are truth.
"Many claim extensive study of the Bible, myself included, and how come to different conclusions to yourself. I certainly doubt your claim of extensive Bible study and would suggest you have done extensive study of Watchtower publications that highlight a narrow range of Scriptures. It is impossible to Study the Bible extensively and arrive at what the Watchtower teaches."
Response -
True, many claim to study the Bible and read it, but in most cases are not really studying and are just using the talking points of their Trinitarian theologians. I have spoken to people, including pastors of churches, who claim they know their Bible, and then I have seen them consult their "How to Witness to Jehovah's Witnesses" type of books, and then are surprised that they cannot answer certain questions or find a reply to the very Word of God that I am quoting.
Many, who have studied the Bible on their own, have come to their own conclusions regarding the biblical truth that God is really one person, and that the One God of the Bible is God the Father (not Father, Son and Holy Ghost). They have come to conclusion that the soul dies and is not immortal. They have come to the conclusion that meek will inherit the earth and converted to a paradise. And they came to that understanding even prior to learning about what the Witnesses believe. Once in contact with the Witnesses, they recognized we had the truth.
You may say what you want about me...but I have studied the Bible extensively...I have large collection of Bible versions, commentaries, dictionaries, and comparative religion books that are not published by the WT. I even have some anti-Witness books in my collection. I still came to the conclusion that the Jehovah's Witnesses teach the truth of the Bible. IT IS NOT IMPOSSIBLE for those who are REALLY studying the Bible and seeking God, to come to same conclusion. Those who are really seeking God will be drawn to Jesus and God (John 6:44, 6:45). Only those who are "corrupt in mind" or "depraved in mind" (as some Bible versions put it ) will not accept the truth of the Bible, regardless of how they claim to study it - because they continue to "oppose the truth." (2 Tim. 3:7-8)
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davidl7
slimfatboy wrote:
"Well you can make a good case for this or that theology based on the Bible if you want. But whether you choose to believe the Bible or not, and whether you believe it teaches a Trinity or not, the situation remains that the organization of JWs does not allow you the dignity of freedom to explore these issues freely. It forbids members from considering the works of former members and it does not tolerare open discussion of alternative points of view at its meetings or even in private settings. If you doubt this then please tell your local elders that you are engaging in discussions on this site. In the end freedom is more important than doctrine, and you come to realise that doctrines whose legitimacy can only be maintained by the authoritarian control of thought and debate imposed by the organization turn out not to be worth defending after all."
Actually, there are many Witnesses that have the books written by James Penton and other ex-Witnesses. Carolyn Wah, a WT attorney who was authored several articles on the JWs in the Journal of Church & State , has read them. Firpo Carr, a Witness author and apologist, has read them. The Witness apologist who co-authored the book on the NWT entitled Your Word is Truth, have read them. Greg Stafford, while he was still a Witness, had read them. I read Penton, Franz, and Ron Rhodes. I know a few other people in my congregation, including an elder that read them...And also, there are many who have read books by ex-Witnesses prior to becoming Witnesses. True, the WT publications strongly discourage reading them. If you remember, a few years ago an article was written that some that were reading those books fell into doubt. Notice that the WT article did not say they are to be expelled. In fact, the article went on to say that they were helped to regain their faith...they were not expelled for reading those books. And it is true that books that do not tell the truth may harm one's faith...that is why the WT publications rightly quote the words of the apostle to avoid those who are apostates. However, at the same time, it has been admitted that many, even though they have read those books, remained strong in the faith, because they, to put it simply, know too much about the Bible. And I have met people who have converted to true Christianity, that told me they thought they were more than prepared to argue with the Witnesses after reading those books, but were impressed by our explanation of the Bible...and what moved them was NOT what the apostates wrote or said, but by what the Bible said...by reading the Bible for themselves and seeing what it says, and examining it daily like the Bereans (Acts 17:11), they came to agree that Witnesses really do teach the truth.
True, the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses will reject alternative viewpoints that do NOT agree with the Bible. Anyone, for instance, that want to starts a discussion in a congregation about allowing practicing homosexuals in the congregation will not be permitted. The elders may urge such as person to reconsider and try to review what the Bible says regarding that matter. While the Christian congregation is not homophopic, they cannot accept those are practicing sin in the congregation, as outlined in 1 Cor. 6:9-11. We are strictly biblical, and unlike other churches who waste time arguing whether or not those living a gay lifestyles should be allowed in their churches, Witnesses let the Bible speak for them.
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davidl7
cedars wrote " now that you have completed an extensive study of the Bible with the aid of Watchtower publications, I would urge you to undertake an extensive study of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society with the aid of the internet. I know this goes against everything you are taught, but if what you have is "The Truth", then what have you got to lose? Surely everything you have been taught should stand up to the closest of scrutiny? Also, the very fact that you are openly participating on this forum shows that you have a degree of bravado in engaging in dialogue with "mentally diseased" apostates rather than heeding the Society's instructions to refrain from doing so. I commend you for your courage, but I think this courage could be channeled into more productive intellectual pursuits."
Actually anyone reading the WT publications will note that numerous times it strongly encourages Bible reading...Anyone who has ever attended their Theocratic weekly Bible meetings, will know that it includes the reading of chapters of the Bible, and in addition to that Witnesses are encourage to read their Bible on a dialy basis, not just the WT publications. As I pointed out in prior posts, I, like most Witnesses, have studied the Bible carefully, reading it daily and examining to make sure that what I am being taught is really found and based on the Bible (Acts 17:11). I have an extensive library of other bible related books, representing different viewpoints, that are not published by the WT.
I have read Franz books, including Crisis of Conscience and In Search of Christian Freedom, but I do not agree with his viewpoints. He seems to emphasize that there is no such thing in the Bible as one Christian group or organization and that the truth can be found in other groups that have similar teachings to the Witnesses such as the Christadelphians or 7th Day Adventist. Problem with that is the Christadelphians do not believe that Jesus had a pre-existance in heaven. And 7th Day Adventist believe in the Trinity...and that is just one of the false teaching not found in the Bible and not taught by Jesus nor his apostles. He attacks the GB has being irresponsible. He appears to accept some of the WT fundamental teachings that he learned and agrees they are taught in the Bible. But from my reading of the Bible, there is only ONE Christian congregation founded by Jesus...an association of brothers organized to preach the good news, with some that were appointed as teachers, evangelizers, apostles, elders, etc. The apostles warned agains the teaching of another Jesus and against sectarianism. The Christian congregation would have to be active in preaching the good news of God's kindgom, as it was in the 1st century, and teach ALL the fundamental teachings of the Bible. The Christian congregation was composed and led by humans, who are IMPERFECT, and are prone to make errors. Rev. 2 and 3 says talks about some errors that congregations were involved in but they had to repent. Franz seems to expect almost perfection from a group of humans...but that is impossible because no human, even members of the GB, are perfect. Interestingly, he himself admits that at a meeting of the GB, that it was decided that elders should not be removed from their position if they decide to send their children to college, thus, confirming that the choice of going to college was a personal decision. I found somewhat alarming his comments on the divine name in his second book. When discussing the NWT translators decision to restore God's name in the Bible, he goes on to say, if I recall correctly, that other Bible versions had the name in the Bible, including the ASV and spanish Version Moderna. Why did he write that in that book, especially when that fact has been pointed out for years in the WT publications? That really led me to get suspicious of his motives. But just to attempt to be brief, I read his books and was not convinced by his way of thinking...
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jwfacts
Many, who have studied the Bible on their own, have come to their own conclusions regarding the biblical truth that God is really one person, and that the One God of the Bible is God the Father (not Father, Son and Holy Ghost). They have come to conclusion that the soul dies and is not immortal. They have come to the conclusion that meek will inherit the earth and converted to a paradise. And they came to that understanding even prior to learning about what the Witnesses believe. Once in contact with the Witnesses, they recognized we had the truth.
That is baseless comment. Where is the substantiation for that? There are only 7 million JWs, a completely insignificant amount compared the 7 Billion people on earth with other beliefs. I assure you, you and the other 7 million are not the only ones that are as dogmatic that they alone have truth.
IT IS NOT IMPOSSIBLE for those who are REALLY studying the Bible and seeking God, to come to same conclusion.
It is absolutely impossible. For one thing, even the leaders of your religion don't come to the same conclusions. Russell, Rutherford, Franz and now the new GB all come to different conclusions, and hence the ongoing "new light", which is really just the new leaders coming to different Biblical conclusions than the old leaders. Secondly, no one would come up with almost any of the prophetic interpretations, ie Revelation pointing to Rutherford and some Watchtower editions. Thirdly, even with a few core Watchtower teachings (which are borrowed) like the their Arianist anti-Trinitarian and Adventist based Soul sleep, the only way to come to these conclusions is to dismiss a number of contradictory Scriptures as figurative. This arbritary dismissal of any unacceptable Scriptures is why there are over 30,000 Christian religions all teaching other things.
Only those who are "corrupt in mind" or "depraved in mind" (as some Bible versions put it ) will not accept the truth of the Bible, regardless of how they claim to study it - because they continue to "oppose the truth."
That is a loathsome comment, but typical of how arrogant, ignorant JWs become. You may try to claim that is a Bible teaching, but what you and your leaders really mean is anyone not following their current interpretation of the Bible is not accepting the Bible and hence depraved. Who are you to claim 7 billion people are depraved because they don't believe what you believe?
Your last three few comments keep echoing the same rhetorical fallacy. "Because some smart people believe the Watchtower, myself included, it must be true". I cannot understand how you don't see the flaw in that reasoning, as it is of the ABC's of poor reasoning.