"Theocratic Warfare" and the Annual Report

by Billy the Ex-Bethelite 141 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  inbetween

  factfinder:

  I think i understand your frustration. To me, reading how dishonest some "witnesses" were regarding FS was also shocking. My experience is and was, that most take it very seroius, even too serious. I was engaged in many discussions, as how and when we should begin counting time. it was not taken lightly by most of them, rather restrictive. According to my experience, faking was and is very little in the org on the pub-level. That knocking on doors, were nobody is at home, is wasting time, is another story.

  You are also right, when you state, not knowing the person behind the posts here on jwn. Some may indeed for several reasons have an agenda to attack, sometimes unbased, everything the WTS does. Therefore, I do not give too much weight to personal experiences here without any proof.

  However, I still learn a lot about the "truth", by simply following the reasoning of very knowledgeable persons here, by being shown the contradictions and fallacies in the literature of the society, by getting to know another viewpoint on certain bible passages, which often make much more sense then the societies awkward interpretations.

  The facts will speak for themselves, once you are granted to see them, no matter if the person posting here has an agenda or not.

  just my 2 cents,

  inbetween
• 

  JW GoneBad

  Factfinder: You may be an exception to the rule. You speak as though you had honorable intentions when you were an active JW and that is good.

  I speak from present day experience.

  For the most part, the view has always been that if you are a low hour publisher, you are viewed as weak! Nobody wants you as a friend. Bottomline!

  To get out of the stigma of 'weak', a publisher needs a minimum of above average hours and then some. Then he is accepted. Sad but true!

  Factfinder: I did not want to climb any ladder! I was not interested in getting a title. I was not interested in recognition.

  Truth is, JW world does not want you if that is your mind set. Forget what Jehovah thinks! It is what the WTBTS and its' GB think and say.

  Factfinder: But in this thread and in others I keep reading about how people were dishonest even while they were witnesses, some being pioneers and elders, bethelites and cong secretary. And I wonder-how honest are these people? If they saw nothing wrong with lying while they were witnesses, how honest would they be now?

  Speaking for myself and for my fellow posters, we were/are a product of our JW environment. In other words, if Mother (WTBTS) wants 15 hours a month from me in order for me to keep the status quo (privileges in the congregation), then it is 15 hours Mother is going to get, by hook or by crook. That is how Mother has brought us up!

  It has often been said, that juvenile children are a product of how they were brought up by their parents! I guess you can say Mother has demonstrated poor parenting skills in the past, and IMO still does!
• 

  hotspur

  Factfinder: I too was like you... 15 mins was 15 mins... I never stretched it to 45 mins! I was shocked to find liars in the Org (a few were natuaral liars and they never had any clout or power) but the biggest shock came when I tried to Fade.... the Secretary always put some time in for me even though I hadn't done any. I just work out why I was not included as "Inactive" when I knoew Ihadn't been out for 7 months.

  The Secretary is still an elder to this day. His language was foul. In fact, when I first met him he warned that he tended to swear and also said "everybody that has become his friend ended out of the Troof"

  That 50% of the reported time is more a accurate account of what's going on? Try 25%... how often do you see JWs alone in their ministry? They're always hunting in pairs!

  I don't thinnk the lying that went on in the JW world of exJWs is a big thing... most (now) exJWs wanted and had a right to expect a quiet life. They didn't want the constant hounding but wanted to stay there for their families etc,. Lying with (falsifying is less contentious) figures was part of either their survival plan or feeding their ego to get ahead. With some elders all you could do to "progress" was to 'enhance' your service. Those JWs just constantly bring it on themselves.
• 

  punkofnice

  I noticed the CO's were often bully boy types that would browbeat the elders for low congregation hours and attendance.

  One meeting it was my turn to take over and do 'attendant' duty which included counting the attendees.

  I told the CoBE that the prev bro hadn't done the count. The hall was no where near full as usual.

  He said: 'Put down 100. that way the stats will look good!'

  I doubt there was 60 there!
• 

  Aussie Oz

  Factfinder...

  Do what your name suggests... FIND FACTS.

  It does not matter what people SAY. It does not matter whether your experiance was different to others in regards to anything. Congregations are different and have different 'spirits', elders and publishers are all different too. Some fudge reports others don't...

  As far as whether the JWs have truth or the apostates, go look for the documented facts of which there are plenty, and pay less attention to whether word of mouth discussions are true or not.

  If you think word of mouth anectdotes are the proof either way, you won't get anywhere in your search.

  This is not a court of law where if somebody is seen to have been 'dishonest' over something then their whole credibility goes down the toilet, its not 'law and order' you know...

  Oz
• 

  sizemik

  Again- I feel like an outsider here on jwn just as I did in the cong. . . . Factfinder

  Nobody on JWN is really an "insider" . . . everybody is different and we're spread across the spectrum . . . complete with both "extremes" . . . but most are somewhere near the middle.

  In all the congregations I was a member of (8) . . . there were always brothers young and old who were regular at everything . . . meetings, F/S etc., but never "reached out". Most genuinely felt as you do . . . they weren't seduced by the desire for position, and most were genuinely humble in regarding themselves as lesser ones. I always enjoyed the company of these brothers and gravitated toward them. Twice I declined "position" myself. The political side was something that gnawed at me.

  Once a brother involves himself in responsibilities however . . . many pressures come into play. Consequently it is these ones, from publishers all the way to the top, who eventually cave . . . in small degrees at first . . . to the over-riding desire to keep up appearances. When you do something less than totally honest that makes the Organisation look good . . . it doesn't seem quite so wrong. Then it becomes easier to repeat in other areas.

  I recall being asked as a pioneer to give an experience at a CA. The brother taking the part helped me edit and shorten my experience owing to "time constraints." What resulted was a condensed version of all the juicy bit's and none of the mundane. I was just pleased as punch that my experience was seen as worthy of being used to encourage others. But with the benefit of hindsight, a rather false impression was created. Nothing was untrue . . . but it was presented as being far more sensational than it really was.

  The whole concept of the "truth" being negotiable (as in Theocratic Warfare) opens up a can of worms which leaves each individual to apply it as he sees fit. Those at the top have a reprehensible record of dishonesty in their literature, no doubt mitigated by preserving "Kingdom interests." The sad truth is that the WTS sanctions dishonesty in this way, and then creates the circumstances where it becomes desirable. Over time they subtley train you to be dishonest. Once you are no longer travelling that road . . . then that form of dishonesty is no longer a pressure . . . or desirable.

  I think you can interpret the frank admissions here as confessions from those who are now free from that pressure . . . a sign of honesty in itself. Why admit to such a thing? . . . except to apply new principles of honesty. Read the OP again and I'm sure you will see what I mean.

  Factfinder . . . you may well have avoided many of the traps. That doesn't make you an outsider . . . if you're XJW, you belong here as much as anybody else. Having a different experience of some things doesn't change that.
• 

  Broken Promises

  I was ultra-scruplalous with my hours and it was only when I came onto the net that I discovered others hadn't been as honest as I was.

  I honestly believed Jehovah was watching everything I did so I didn't dare fluff my hours.
• 

  Heaven

  Even if its just half that-its a lot of time preaching!

  I asked my Dad about this because really, in an hour of going door to door, just how much actual 'preaching' is being done? I asked him, "Do you count your time driving from house to house in your field service numbers?" There was a very long pause and then a somewhat tentative 'Yeees'. I said, "Well, that's not actual preaching, it's just driving so the numbers are not accurate at all."

  So factfinder, did you include all your driving/walking/ringing the door bell/standing waiting at the door time in your FS numbers and if so, how does that constitute actual preaching?
• 

  outsmartthesystem

  So.......pioneers are well known for taking the "star" route to all of their calls.....

  Everyone takes excessive breaks

  I myself recall making several days out of driving across town and dropping magazine off at laundromats and convenience stores

  I know of several witnesses that "rounded up" or borrowed hours from the next month only to never make it back up.

  As mentioned already....you talk to any elder and they'll tell you that if you make a "call" before meeting for service....and then you make a "call" right afterward.....you can count your "time" all through the service meeting.

  I can't tell you how many times we met for service and immediatly hit the adjacent parking lot to hand a magazine to an unsuspecting shopper just so our entire ****ing van load of proselytizers could start counting "their time".

  Yet witnesses brag about the 1.5 billion hours (or whatever it is) that they put into the "disciple making work" every year. No one stops to recognize that the majority of it is BS. Or if they do......they reason "well....the society says we can still count our time even though we aren't technically out in service any more......and they are receiving their direction from GOD....so who are we to question it?"
• 

  breakfast of champions

  I was always quite liberal in counting my time. My belief was since I was working for Jehoover, and he was THE BEST EMPLOYER IN ALL THE FRIGGIN UNIVERSE, that at the very LEAST, I would count my time according to the same rules as my secular job. For instance, I arrive at my secular job around 8am, on myway to the first customer at 830, coffee break somewhere in there, all sorts of windshield time.... so by lunch, I have 4 hours of work. No deductions for travel, breaks etc. So if the mtg for FS is 930, that when time starts, when I get back at noon, it ends, 2.5 hrs total. Why the hell am I going to nickel and dime myself in service when my EVIL WORLDY employer doesn't even account that way?

  Because jehover is the best employer ever, ya know!