Thanks Billy!!! When I pioneered I tried to be as honest as I could but on a bad month rounded UP!!! My ex was so ANAL and would keep tract of 15 min... That's funny as a secretary you filled in blanks! I'm sure everyone was happy about that!
"Theocratic Warfare" and the Annual Report
by Billy the Ex-Bethelite 141 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
-
-
ShadesofGrey
Factfinder,
Do apostates lie to push people away from the organization?
If they do, it doesn't matter. There are plenty of facts that one can use to come to the conclusion that the JWs are not God's people. I can list several smoking gun scriptures that contradict what they teach. I have hard copies of publications that show their lies and changing doctrines. They do not display real love. Have you not noticed this? Since coming out of the org everyone is more loving than they were.When I found Christ I told my husband about it and that the org was all wrong. I was upset for a long time because he showed no interest in spiritual things. Well, it turns out he had no interest in untruth. He very much has an interest in spiritual things now. So if some were dishonest while they were in that tainted organization, it does not mean that they are dishonest now.
Oh, and Christians preach too. They just don't count their time on it. "Faith without works is dead." Do you know what that means? It means that out of your faith come works... natural works, no one is telling you to do it, no one is encouraging you to do it, you want to. You WANT to.
Sincerely,
SOG
-
Quarterback
The JWS are not the only ones that fudge reports, although I do believe that some are over meticulous in there numbers. We have gotta have some honest people in that 7 million number of active publishers. They evidently are not posting on here.
I have done statistical work for the Government, and their methods also fudged some numbers. They fudged it to get more money for their budgets, more equipment, hiring of more staff, trying to look good, to prove a theory....etc.
-
outsmartthesystem
Factfinder - "It is very dissapointing to me and surprising that many claim they faked their fs reports.
I am going through so many conflicting feelings and ideas- I don't know who to believe."
I don't think the insinuation is that MOST witnesses turn in completely BOGUS reports. The insinuation is that yes....most of us fudged. Although it is still NOT true....there is a difference between rounding up from 8 to 9 hours and blatantly writing down 10 hours when you know you never even went out once. For instance.....in my hall.....you had to average 10 hours to receive the wonderful privilege of being a "territory servant" or a "mic handler". And yes....if you fell behind....you'd get an earfull from the CO or the PO. So if you had 9 hours....it (at the time) didn't seem like THAT big if a sin to just say I got 10. Here was my reasoning. I thought....at least my 9 hours were REAL hours. I actually tried to engage people in bible conversation. I prepared. Whereas a particular elder's son that I knew (same age as me) DIDN'T prepare. He intentionally wasted time out in service. He would even (yes I was guilty of this a couple times too) do the fake door knock.....and then stuff a magazine in the door so he wouldn't have to talk to anyone. He got his 10 hours of service in.....but it was all BS! He gets "privileges" because he hit the magic number of 10....even though the service he rendered was half-assed. I get a stern talking to about not taking field service seriously because I only hit 9 hours. The point being....no one gives two shits about the QUALITY of your service. They just care about the numbers. And when you realize that.....you tend to think it is no longer such a big deal to fudge a bit.
-
LongHairGal
BILLY THE EX-BETHELITE: Thank you for your honesty. Everybody there is full of shit and they know everybody else is as well. I am not surprised at all this 'fudging' of numbers and statistics especially when the religion's beliefs are fudged. The whole thing sounds like it's going to collapse, if you ask me.
-
Quarterback
Outsmartthesystem, you hit it right on the nail.
-
outsmartthesystem
Fact Finder - "But in this thread and in others I keep reading about how people were dishonest even while they were witnesses, some being pioneers and elders, bethelites and cong secretary. And I wonder-how honest are these people? If they saw nothing wrong with lying while they were witnesses, how honest would they be now?"
We were all a product of the system. It was beaten into our heads how important it was to SHOW numbers. Sure, the ministry school would pay lip service to the importance of quality of your service.....but in the end.....it came down to numbers. How many hours? How many RVs? How many magazine placements? How many book placements? Yes some people faked their service reports. Some did it because they were truly trying to be encouraging. (higher numbers all around are encouraging). Some people did it because we had to in order to have "privileges". Some people fudged because they just didn't give a damn and wanted to keep the elders off their backs. Yet, I'm sure....there are many, many who never have and never will fudge. If the number of people fudging doesn't tell you that this work of "field circus" is NOT BEING DIRECTED BY GOD....I don't know what will.
How honest are these people? Again......they are a product of the system. A system that says all the right things from the stage (focus on the quality of your ministry) but reality is much different. When you are beaten down by numbers numbers numbers.....eventually you start to not care or you start to justify fudging your numbers in your own mind. This doesn't make a person a pathological liar. It makes them a victim of a corrupt system.
I consider fudging on a service report to be akin to finding a $20 bill on the street. If you found one....would you report it come tax time? According to the law....you should. If you don't report it.....you have lied about your true income. Does this make you a bad person? Not in my mind.
-
Quarterback
Here is a free coupon.
It allows you to claim 10 free hours a month. It does expire though in about 30 days.
The additional conditions state: If a brother, you must not have a beard, if a sister, must not wear a pants suit.
Just attach it to your slip when submitting your report at the end of the month.
The link is WWW.Servicecoupon.com
At participation Kingdom Halls, only. Must be over 18 years of age. Can't be redeemed for cash.
-
life is to short
factfinder
I too was like you in that I thought every JW was so very honest and I was at first shocked when I read this stuff on JWN but when I truly stopped to look at itand think about it I realized it had to all be true and it finally hit me on why I was always the outsider in the hall.
When I pioneered my husband had been asked to move to a hall that needed help in the country. We drove and drove and drove with a van full of people many times up to eight people in the van. We had a Honda civic which seated 4 people well my husband would squeeze six many times into that poor car and drive around aimlessly for hours and hours and hours.
I would go nuts, we had ten pioneers in the hall. Our territory was 45 miles one way and over 60 the other. We NEVER and I mean NEVER worked the town that the hall was in for the whole 4 years I lived in that congregation. I could never find the territory card for the town. Some phantom sister had the card that needed it and I was assured the town was getting covered and not to worry my pretty little head over it as it was none of my BUSINESS anyway!
I was beyond frustrated we would pile in the van or our car and drive 45 miles one way only to get to a not a home and then someone in the group would have a call clear on the other side where we had just been but it had been to early to call when we had been there the hour before and they did not want to wake them up at that time, so we would drive 70 miles to the other call only for it not to be home also and someone in the car group would have this urgent call back where we had just come from and we would drive the 70 miles back to that call. Then someone would have to go back to town. I would just go crazy.
We were putting 30,000 miles a year on our car. No one had any money to help out with gas so I was working 30 plus hours a week plus putting in 90 a month pioneering. I was dead tired all the time and would fall asleep in the car for which I got into trouble by the elders as some of the sisters reported me to them. My husband was an elder himself but he went along with it all.
Still I thought everyone was honest. How truly blind was I. I tried and tried and tired to get us to do field service where we were actually talking to PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!! and every time I would be shot down by all the other pioneers. They truly wanted to drive around aimlessly.
Then I went to Bethel and there I truly learned how dishonest JW's can be. I was in total shock. At first I comforted myself with thinking that they were the ones Satan was using to test Jehovah's loyal ones but there was just so many.
Once I got on this board it has all made so much sense to me. It is the way it is. I was honest totally honest in my counting of time. But there were always the phantom pioneers who were NEVER OUT!!!!!!!!!!! and I mean never but again I was always told not to worry my pretty little head over it. It bothered me because I would have liked to have had people to work with to help me get my time in. I sometimes would have to go alone in service as I had no one to work with and it was just not SAFE to work alone cold calling on doors of strangers. My husband had his elder duties to attend to and I was second on his list when it came to his being an elder. In the territory we had a lot of pot being grown and calling alone on homes was so scary. Yet I did it to please Jehovah and here these phantom pioneers always had so much more time in then I did every month.
There was one time after we had come back from Bethel and I had aux pioneered for just one month. I asked the elders not to mention my name as a pioneer from the stage for the month as I was doing it for Jehovah AND nothing else, I told them that I really did not even want to turn in the slip but they said I must if I wanted to get that much time in. Really? I could not just turn in 60 hours and call it good? They would not count my time for that month unless I had a piece of paper with it? Anywho they did not say anything about my pioneering all month and I was pleased that they had honored my wishes, that is until the last service meeting of the month when they reread the names of those who were aux pioneering and my name was there. I was beyond hurt. They broke their word to me, they lied to me I felt.
And as a last point on counting time I always think of David in the Bible and how he got into trouble for counting. How is this any different. This is taken from the WT of May 15th 2005 (" Why did taking a count of people constitute a serious sin for David? The taking of a census was not in itself forbidden in the Law. (Numbers 1:1-3; 26:1-4) The Bible does not say what objective moved David to number the people. However, 1 Chronicles 21:1 indicates that Satan incited him to do so. In any event, his military chief, Joab, knew that David's decision to register the people was wrong, and he tried to dissuade David from doing it.")
How is the stupid counting of our time any different?
LITS
-
Quarterback
Thanks for you experience LITS. You are right about these phantom pioneers. They do exist. I have seen them, and their reports. When I pioneered in a large city, I hitched hiked, and took buses. I couldn't afford a car. Still I recorded the time accurately. Those were the days of 100 hrs per month. There were other pioneers in my congregation, but I never ran into them. I was fortunate to have 5 BS during the month that kept me encoraged. I kept it up for 5 years. The only time I worked with someone was on the Weekend, when I supported the group. Of course I wouldn't encourage hitch hiking today. It was different in those days.
QB