Have you ever successfully persuaded anyone?

by losthobbit 38 Replies latest jw experiences

• 

  AGuest

  Greetings, dear LH... and, again, peace to you! I cannot tell you how many discussions I've been involved with along the lines of your last post to me. I have recently come to the conclusion, however, that they are a bit futile because while those who believe like you proceed with explaining your methods (via science and math)... and I can understand, grasp, and perceive those methods (first, I attended university and took critical thinking, quantum math, and philosophy; but more importantly, they're not rocket science, per se, and you all tend to explain them pretty well)... I am not sure that you can understand, grasp, or perceive MY method... as I would explain him to you.

  Even more... I am often left with no choice but to assume you don't even WANT to... won't even condescend to entertain the possibilities, let alone try to understand them. My experience has been that, while dear ones like you want folks to at least CONSIDER what you're offering... you're no longer willing to even reciprocate and CONSIDER what I might share with you. Rather, you are pretty much "done" as to all things relating to faith... due to your experience with religion... and so consider all things relating to faith as one and the same with religion. They are not, though, and the unwillingness to even consider that... and often hostile resistance I encounter during discussions... leaves me with the thought that dogmatism lies at both ends of the spectrum... and there is no room for anything else at each end.

  I personally am not religious; I do believe it to be a snare and a racket and the "opium of the people" (well, one of them). I am, however, a woman of faith. Faith in God... and in the One He sent to represent Himself to and create peace with mankind... Christ. I am not a believer in the Bible, per se, although I do believe some of what is in there is truth (a whole lot is not, though).

  The questions I have are a bit different than perhaps those you might have/may have had. As a result, they are answered a bit differently. With regard to things of physical world, the method you set forth above is crucial... and I do not deny its benefits; however, not all questions relate to the physical world. Because (1) there is more in existence than the physical world, and (2) we are more than just physical beings - there is our bodies/flesh, the "man" we are on the outside, yes. But there is also the man we are on the INSIDE... and my questions usually pertain to that.

  So, I hope this helps you understand ME a little better. If not, then perhaps I can refer you to dear tec's response (the greatest of love and peace to you, my dear sister!)... and say, simply, that such applies to me, as well.

  Again, peace to you!

  YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

  SA
• 

  rebel8

  have you ever successfully persuaded someone to change their mind about something that they had been brainwashed with, and if so, how did you do it

  I don't know about brainwashed, but I have persuaded people to change their mind about something they firmly believed. How--by not making them feel dumb but instead showing them the logic of the situation, gradually over time until they are ready to hear it.
• 

  losthobbit

  Thanks for your thoughts, Tammy, Hofer, SA and Rebel8. Lots to think about here :)
• 

  losthobbit

  Hi Tammy

  You wrote "Speaking personally, I need Christ and His help to be at peace. To forgive, to show mercy, to love friends and enemies, to show patience and forebearance against those who do me wrong. That is what HE does for me. I trust in His mercy, his forgiveness, and his promises. Christ is the Truth of God. Not religion."

  For me, I understand forgiveness because I try to think rationally.

  Let me explain:

  - Revenge is mainly about being unwilling to control anger. This is typically irrational.

  - Punishment is about keeping order, and not necessarily inflicting pain, but pain can be a byproduct. This is typically rational.

  I understand, and love people simply because I am human, and I know it's right. I don't need Christ or God to tell me that.

  I dream of a time when we will all be able to gather together to learn about love and forgiveness and to socialize, without the necessity to believe in any deities. For me the closest thing to that is the Zeitgeist Movement, which I have spoken about before.
• 

  tec

  Hi Losthobbit.

  I understand forgiveness because I try to think rationally.

  Forgiveness IS rational. (some might argue) Just because we have different methods to arrive at forgiveness - or love, or peace - does not change the rationality of forgiveness, itself. So if we both come to show forgiveness, then what does it matter what helps us arrive at that point?

  Side note *I hope we can agree that understanding forgiveness and giving forgiveness are not necessarily the same thing. Love and empathy are both required first to give forgiveness (imo). Forgiveness is a natural consquence of love.

  Punishment is about keeping order, and not necessarily inflicting pain, but pain can be a byproduct. This is typically rational.

  I would argue a little here - Punishment is more about revenge - eye for eye. Discipline is about teaching, to better someone, help them see consequences of their actions, and so make better choices in the future, perhaps also teach them empathy toward others going through what they now have.

  Punishment, imo, is not rational, because it does not (often) come from love. Discipline (often) does, though.

  If something does not come from love, then it is often going to hurt something/someone down the line.

  I understand, and love people simply because I am human, and I know it's right.

  Good!

  But not everyone does, "simply because they are human and know it's right". Some think the opposite. We know they think the opposite because we can see it in what they DO.

  I dream of a time when we will all be able to gather together to learn about love and forgiveness and to socialize, without the necessity to believe in any deities.

  Yes... when everyone believes (or rather, does not believe) the same as you. And this is the problem that I have with people who think as you do - believers or non-believers alike. Because this is no different than what many various religions think/teach : If everyone believed the way we believe, the world would be a better place. So all we have to do is make everyone believe like us.

  But everyone does not have to believe the same to be able to show love, and forgiveness, and to be at peace with one another. You have to believe in love and in peace and in forgiveness, sure... but the source you draw upon to show these things, well... what business is that of mine? Or of yours?

  Peace,

  Tammy
• 

  AGuest

  Punishment, imo, is not rational, because it does not (often) come from love.

  It is also not rational, dear tec (the greatest of love and peace to you!), because it has been shown NOT to change people's minds as to... or deter... wrong. If punishment were rational... it would WORK. That would be the rationality FOR it. And if it WORKED... there would be NO wrong done in the world, at all. As the research and track record has shown, though... THERE IS MUCH WRONGDOING IN THE WORLD, much of it by repeat offenders. Thus, punishment does NOT work (thus, there is wrongdoing in the world).

  And if it doesn't WORK, then it cannot be rational.

  Again, such wonderful common sense... and spiritual... sense from you, dear one! Bravo... peace to you... and do carry on!

  YOUR servant, sister, and fellow slave of Christ,

  SA
• 

  tec

  It is also not rational, dear tec (the greatest of love and peace to you!), because it has been shown NOT to change people's minds as to... or deter... wrong.

  True AND proven, yes.

  Peace to you, Shelby, and thanks.

  Tammy
• 

  losthobbit

  Hi Tammy and Shelby

  I think we just have different understandings of the word punishment, because I actually completely agree with you. I think the bible gets punishment and revenge muddled up. Anyway, I won't carry on about that, because I really agree with what you're saying there :)

  With regard to what you've both written about faith not being the same as religion... it's another case of words having a different meaning for different people. I would define religion as having faith, or belief in a deity. You may use different words for different things, but it seems we would agree more if we had the same understanding of those words :)

  Shelby, I'd like to comment on what you wrote previously: "I am not sure that you can understand, grasp, or perceive MY method... as I would explain him to you. Even more... I am often left with no choice but to assume you don't even WANT to... won't even condescend to entertain the possibilities, let alone try to understand them. My experience has been that, while dear ones like you want folks to at least CONSIDER what you're offering... you're no longer willing to even reciprocate and CONSIDER what I might share with you."

  This is actually a pretty good way to persuade me, because I've previously written about my love for open mindedness. What you wrote here I take as a challenge, to try to prove to you that I do try to be open minded. I spent many years trying to find answers to my questions by praying, and asking for other peoples' opinions.

  I do, however need to say that logic and rational thinking are universal, and apply to everything. I've spoken to people before about logic problems in the bible, and they simply respond with something like "We don't understand God... his thinking is above our thinking." That's all fine, but at some point beforehand you have to use very accurate logic or rational arguments to decide that you can actually trust your source of information about God.

  So Shelby, I would expect the following from your method: that it is either very obviously logical, or that it has been tried and tested and proven. If not, maybe it is pointless telling me, but please go ahead and explain to me the method which you used to determine your point of view, and I will do my best to try and see it through your eyes.

  When I was a Christian, I had my methods by which I determined my faith. I was embarrassed to talk to people about my beliefs, and after many years I realized that the reason was because I had not been honest with myself, because my methods were flawed.

  Peace to you too :)

  Stephen
• 

  jookbeard

  I contributed in taking 4 out, bought zero in thank goodness.