by messenger 59 Replies latest jw friends
Alan Fraudbacker said:
Also note that, like the Society now, You Know deliberately fails to try to explain how anything that is exactly the same as it has always been can be a sign of anything. Green grass growing in one place after another is just as much a sign of "the end" as earthquakes are.
I don't have to explain it. I didn't say it. Jesus did. And I am fairly confident that he knew what he was talking about. / You Know
You Know,
You miss one ingredient of the "composite" sign significance. It's not "there will be earthquakes in one place after another" as Jesus states, it's how the WTBS manipulates the context for the better part of 70 years. By playing on fear, worry, sloth, non-critical thinking, and class cliques. It is a false representation of a contextual knowledge.
Much like Enron insiders misrepesenting their balance sheets to their own ends. And just like Enron a select few in New York are literally influencing the lives of millions. When they themselves are not certain of the knowledge, or know its wrong, or know that it will have to be revised when its politically correct and feasible to do or when it's necessary(ie, when they get caught with their hand in the cookie jar)
Watching this "new light" is like seeing the second plane flying into the WTC. You see it and it seems like time is slowing down, you witness it and you still cant believe it. It's shocking.
What is sad is not what things stumble people, (you find stumbling amusing? what did Jesus say regarding the one whom the stumbling comes from?) but rather that they themselves place the autonomy of their very lives in anothers hands instead of themselves. It can never be otherwise: you alone are the only one responsible for your life. The reality is that the burned hand teaches best. I think this is why we are in part in these forums. The WTBS flip flops reminds us how we allowed ourselves to be duped and to be ever on guard for those who would take away our choice.
How long can a "religion" that teaches and publishes lies, half truths, suppositions, and then hides behind semantics or syntax
endure?
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." ~Hitler
There is a translation of the New Testatment called "The message." It is more like a paraphrase than an exact translation, the translator points out that is intention was to convey the conversational style used in the original manuscripts.
His take on these verses is not that this are all to be taken as a sign, but as the exact opposite. Jesus statement turns into, "you will see all sorts of things happening, but don't get frightened, it is just history working itself out." (Not the exact quote, but close). This parallels the many verses that refer to the Lord coming like a thief in the night, nobody knows the day and hour, etc. In other words trying to figure this out is futile speculation.
Live your life the way you think it ought to be lived because its the right thing to do, not because you think the world might end.
Well then, Booby, you've got a real problem on your hands: If Jesus said it, and if the JW interpretation of "it" is right, and if Jesus is right, then there's still no possible way to apply the "earthquake sign" to our time or to any other time. Thus, Jesus gave a completely meaningless sign. And if Jesus gave a meaningless sign, then he was incompetent as a prophet. Therefore he was a false prophet.
You can't get away from this, Booby: either Jesus and you and JW leaders are all false prophets, or we aren't living in "the last days", which makes you and JW leaders false prophets.
This all becomes much more problematic for JWs when we contemplate the fact that every sign that JW leaders have traditionally claimed as pointing towards "the end times" is either in a state just like it has always been, or is much less of a problem for mankind than ever before. Therefore what we actually observe is a kind of anti-sign. And because JW leaders and you are interpreting this anti-sign ass-backwards, it's evident that you spirit-directed nincompoops don't know your asses from your elbows. Spiritually speaking, of course. But one often wonders about physically.
AlanF
You Know,
Because years ago on the H20 forum when this issue was brought up by Alan Fraudbacker and others I simply pointed out that Jesus never said there would be an increase in earthquakes, only that there would be "earthquakes in one place after another." That doesn't necessarily equate to an increase in frequency or intensity.Thanks for your reply, and the clarification on your words. But this begs the questions that Alan and others have raised: If, as you point out, Jesus' words should not be interpreted to mean a special increase in earthquakes, then just what is the point? Is it not meaningless? To say that the existence of earthquakes would signal the end-times implies that we should be able identify a time of NO earthquakes, as a contrast.
I didn't necessarily disagree with the Society. I simply pointed out what Jesus actually said. It is a rather trivial point as far as I'm concerned. I never even gave it a second thought. It's amazing to me some of the ridiculous things people stumble over.Fair enough, but don't you agree that by pointing out what Jesus actually said, you were (unintentionally) publically disagreeing with the Society, who DID say that there WAS a measurable increase, and that this was proof of Christ's invisible presence? Won't this disagreement cause them to label you an apostate?
I'm sorry to be the one to tell you, but it doesn't matter at all if I think you're an apostate. And it doesn't matter if YOU think you're an apostate. What matters is that when the Society was preaching that there was a measurable increase in earthquakes as proof of the 1914 dating, and you were saying that this was not what Jesus said, you became an apostate in their eyes. It doesn't matter if you were, in fact, correct. It doesn't matter if they later changed their view and agreed with you. To disagree with the GB is to be an apostate. Period.
My advice to you would be to maintain your anonymity. If your identity is ever learned, your innocent words could lead to your disfellowshipping.
I agree with you wholeheartedly on the issue of stumbling over silly things. A good example is that the Governing Body will be stumbled mightily over a simple thing like someone disagreeing with their claims that there has been a measurable increase in earthquakes since 1914, and that this is proof of Christ's parousia. Again, guard your anonymity, or you'll see what happens when the GB is stumbled.
Hmmm
PS I really would like it if you would answer the questions about how these earthquakes can be a sign of anything, since there is nothing unique about them. Thanks again, for your response.
Watchtower 12/1/93 page 6 paragraph 2 Natural Disasters-Is God Responsible?
In this regard, note what the book Natural Disasters—Acts of God or Acts of Man? has to say: "There is no evidence that the climatological mechanisms associated with droughts, floods and cyclones are changing. And no geologist is claiming that the earth movements associated with earthquakes, volcanoes and tsunami (earthquake waves) are becoming more violent." Similarly, the book Earthshock observes: "The rocks of every continent contain a record of innumerable major and minor geological events, every one of which would be a catastrophic disaster to mankind if they occurred today—and it is scientifically certain that such events will occur again and again in the future." In other words, the earth and its dynamic forces have more or less remained the same throughout the ages. Hence, whether or not some statistics indicate an increase of some forms of geologic or other activity, the earth has not become uncontrollably violent in recent times.
M
Thank you, Masterji! That's the WT article I had in mind earlier in this thread.
AlanF
"Again Jesus said that the war, famine and pestilence would be followed by earthquakes.
It was not unusual for Jesus to use symbolic language; in fact, he often used symbolic
language…In Biblical symbology earthquake means revolution. Following the war have
come famine, pestilence and revolutions in many countries…the spirit of revolution is rife
everywhere."
MILLIONS NOW LIVING WILL NEVER DIE Copyrighted 1920
I like it better all the time.
M
Many Christian sects have long believed that Jesus himself said that worsening world conditions such as crime, wars, contagious disease, earthquakes and famine would be signs that he was about to return, or in the case of JWs that he had returned.
However, Jesus said no such thing. Read Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 carefully and you will find what Jesus was really saying. His point was that such conditions would exist all the way up to the time of his return and would not be signs of his return at all. In fact, he warned his disciples that they should not be worried by such things. He said, "These things must take place but the end will not come right away." (Luke 21:9) He compared the difficult times to come to "birth pains." (Mt. 24:8) For just as a woman must often undergo a long painful period of time before she finally gives birth, so Jesus indicated that our world had much pain to endure before he would finally return.
Christ's disciples had asked him for a sign of his return. In answering their question he, in effect, said, "The sign you have asked for will not be an earthly sign. Things on earth will go on as they always have. There will be a lot of tough times in the years to come, as there always has been. And these difficult times will continue all the way up until the time I return. The 'sign' you have asked me for will appear, not on the earth, but in the sky." (Matt. 24:30)
Masterji,
Thanks for posting that - considering how shamefully and dishonestly the WTS misquoted Professor Aki on Earthquakes it is disgusting that they would do such an about face without an apology. But typical.
As for Jesus, actually the claim that e-quakes and wars would be a sign of the end was something that would identify false prophets. That's why he said it - don't be disturbed by idiots like You Know is what he meant! And we aren't.
Robert, though, is a simple liar - he lacks the intellect to be anything but.
Herbert
