On becoming atheist - the tug of war

by Nickolas 207 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  sabastious

  Perhaps you do not fear oblivion because you still believe it may not apply to you.

  Why would I have reason to fear oblivion? I have reason to avoid it, but not fear it (not that I don't fear it sometimes, I'm just speaking pure logic which I aspire for yet have not obtained it yet). I will admit that I feel weird about the thought of my body decomposing or just the fact that I wont be here anymore, but there is no reason to fear death in itself. However, TYPES of death on the other hand are harder to reconcile. I surely don't like the idea of a slow agonizing death of which my family has to watch take place over many years.

  -Sab
• 

  Nickolas

  I'll have to add that one to my list of books to read, unshackled. (I'm just about done "The Selfish Gene" and have "The Greatest Show on Earth" in the queue.) There is a degree of uncertainty in what I believe about life and death, but it's pretty small. I'm a 6 on the Dawkins scale. But it really just doesn't matter. That which I do not know, cannot know, will never know, is almost infinitely greater than what I think I know to be true. If there is a spiritual world I don't perceive it. If someone else perceives it and says he knows what goes on in it I hope I will be courteous enough to allow him beliefs that are important to him. If he insists that I can't be "saved" unless I believe what he does, well then we have a problem.
• 

  talesin

  Nickolas --- there's a reason why one of my nicknames is Spock. ;)

  It always surprises me that some highly educated, even brilliant folks are theists. Even Einstein confessed to a belief in God. Go figure? I have come to think that the need for a 'reason to be' has been cultivated in humanity for so long that many people either overthink the issue, or just believe that what they were taught as children must be true. Does believing in a deity really make us superior to the animals? hmmm,,, I think not.

  sab --- did you know you are paraphrasing Karl Marx "religion is the opiate of the masses" ;)

  tal
• 

  Nickolas

  I agree with you, sab. You should not fear oblivion. But to have reason to avoid it is inconsistent with not being fearful of it. Why avoid it? You can't. It's inevitable. So you need not avoid it at all. Embrace it.
• 

  SweetBabyCheezits

  Fine post, Nick.

  A lack of belief in afterlife is definitely the most unpleasant aspect of my non-theistic view. That said, my mom passed away last month and while it was more painful and difficult to accept than I could've imagined, I didn't fall into a pit of despair. In fact, I really don't think my sadness is any greater than it would be if I had my old JW perspective.

  This may sound cold but there's a certain peace that comes from accepting death as normal, as opposed to "the enemy" as JWs teach. Of course, when a loved one dies too young (my mother was 64), it's tough not to feel cheated. And I'm sure the younger the person is, the greater the perception of injustice.

  These are some "scriptures" that give me comfort:

  "It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."
  (Carl Sagan)

  "We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia."(Richard Dawkins)

  "I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it."
  (attributed to Mark Twain)

  “We all die. The goal isn't to live forever, the goal is to create something that will.”
  (attributed to Chuck Palahniuk)

  EDIT: Sorry, LWT, I'd started this post when there was only one reply to Nick. I just doubled-up on the Twain quote!
• 

  sabastious

  sab --- did you know you are paraphrasing Karl Marx "religion is the opiate of the masses" ;)

  Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again. But man is no abstract being squatting outside the world. Man is the world of man—state, society. This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world. Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d'honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion. Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give uop a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the hal.

  ^ Thanks talesin I have never read that before. Interesting take on religion by Marx.

  -Sab
• 

  Nickolas

  Tammy, I might offer the same observation to you as I have to sab. I respect both of you and I am honoured that you have contributed to this thread. But what I might appreciate understanding is how one can simulaneously hold out a hope for eternal life and say he has truly confronted the notion of oblivion? In order to confront it, you have to believe it.
• 

  sabastious

  I agree with you, sab. You should not fear oblivion. But to have reason to avoid it is inconsistent with not being fearful of it. Why avoid it? You can't. It's inevitable. So you need not avoid it at all. Embrace it.

  There is nothing inherently wrong with avoiding death. If one takes on such a task they would do well to consider the fact that no human has done it yet. Obsession with the avoision of oblivion is what religion is for, which is one of the reasons I avoid religion. I'm not too concerned with avoiding oblivion, I am more concerned with what happens after we die.

  Have you seen Hereafter? It's a facinating take on life after death and how people cope with it as well as a small amount of science.

  -Sab
• 

  sabastious

  Tammy, I might offer the same observation to you as I have to sab. I respect both of you and I am honoured that you have contributed to this thread. But what I might appreciate understanding is how one can simulaneously hold out a hope for eternal life and say he has truly confronted the notion of oblivion? In order to confront it, you have to believe it.

  Keeping eternal hope on one's table is not the same thing as ignoring one's own mortality.

  -Sab
• 

  talesin

  @ tec I do not mind confrontational! It's a good thing, and fosters rigorous discussion. :D

  That being said, I hope my answer 'reads' respectfully, because that is my intent.

  Yes, because no one was born believing in evolution either. They had to be taught it.

  Evolution is science. It's like chemistry. I was not born understanding what H 2 O means either.

  No one was born selfless either. They have to be taught it. No one is born being a humanist. They have to be taught it.

  I disagree. First off, is 'selfless' a good thing to be? As a JW, I was taught to be selfless, and it gave me low self-esteem. Now, I'm not trying to twist words, but here's something I learned in therapy. We need to be 'selfish' to take care of ourselves. Being 'self-absorbed', however, is a whole other thing, and means caring about one's self to the exclusion of the good of others. If we don't take care of ourselves first (selfish), how can we help others?

  And I have been a humanist since I was a child -- once I cast off the guilt and perfectionism taught by the principle of 'original sin',,, I was free to love and care for all people (myself first), and all living things. That feels much more natural to me.

  tal

  I'm off to visit a friend for the day,,, looking forward to reading when I get home... ttfn !