Q for all Christians (not just JW) about the ransom.

by Anony Mous 85 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • djeggnog
    djeggnog

    @Deputy Dog:

    My point is that there is a giant difference between the WT ransom and the atonement of Christ in Christianity.

    What difference is there?

    @cofty

    I know; that was the whole theme of the article and the reason I became a christian

    There are many that may have heard the good news and that claim to be Christians, but their sins have not been pardoned because they fail to exercise faith in Jesus.

    As I said above...

    I was not implying that anything in addition to Jesus' death was necessary.

    Well, there should have been such an implication, since Jesus' death was the payment of the ransom price that was needed to satisfy justice. Something in addition to Jesus' death is definitely necessary for salvation.

    Adam had squandered away his right to live through his disobedience, which made him a murderer in that he killed all mankind -- both you and me -- that were yet unborn in his loins when he elected to sin against God, and there was absolutely no way that God could pardon his unpardonable, deliberate sin since Adam was a perfect man. But God's love for the world (as yet unborn) prompted him to take the extraordinary action he did in sending his only-begotten son from heaven to be born here on earth as Adam's perfect brother to redeem Adam's debt, which his offspring incurred so that we were all sold into bondage to sin and death that we had come to inherit from our father, Adam, who forfeited his right to live, so that he could not be redeemed in that he had to die for his wilful sin committed against God.

    Just as Adam's sin led to all of his offspring incurring his debt for sin, which debt we would never be able to satisfy, our "uncle" Jesus' death redeemed the sins of all of us, his nieces and nephews, thus effecting a release that lifted the curse of sin from all of Adam's children. By making this provision of the ransom possible in having Jesus step in as Adam's brother to redeem us, this became God's gift to us, since what God did was an undeserved kindness to us, and there was really no other way that we could have been redeemed, except through the payment of this precious ransom price that no other human the equal of Adam would ever have been able to pay to God in satisfaction of justice. But this release does not grant a pardon to anyone.

    Now God, being the epitome of righteousness, could not just pardon our sins without there being a legitimate basis, in fact, for his granting such a pardon to us, and he made it possible for our sins to be pardoned by having his son -- our uncle -- pay the ransom, one perfect life for another perfect life. However, because Jehovah, being our proverbial grandfather, so to speak, is willing to become reconciled with only those of Adam's redeemed children that prove to be obedient to all of the things that Jesus taught, so mankind's salvation comes with one condition, namely, that we exercise faith in Jesus, for only those exercising faith in Jesus will gain eternal life, whereas those that refuse to exercise faith in Jesus will not see life at all. Jesus, therefore, became a ransom, not in exchange for all of Adam's descendants, but in exchange for many, in exchange for those that would obediently put faith in Jesus, who would thus become inevitably our prophetic "Eternal Father," becoming for us what Adam did not become for us.

    Anyone that should claim to be saved ought to be putting faith in Jesus, but anyone that is not doing the will of the Father will not be granted a pardon since salvation is conditioned upon our putting faith in the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ, whose ransom is actually what laid the basis for our being given the opportunity to inherit eternal life in the first place, but it is our acceptance in faith of the ransom paid by Jesus Christ that permits God to pardon our sins and grant salvation to us.

    @djeggnog

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    cofty

    Aren't you the one telling me in a previous thread, how you never felt completely free as a Christian, and you felt you were being controlled (though not to the same degree as when you were a JW)?

    That is a symptom of not understanding "justification".

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    djeggnog

    Now God, being the epitome of righteousness, could not just pardon our sins without there being a legitimate basis, in fact, for his granting such a pardon to us, and he made it possible for our sins to be pardoned by having his son -- our uncle -- pay the ransom, one perfect life for another perfect life. However, because Jehovah, being our proverbial grandfather, so to speak, is willing to become reconciled with only those of Adam's redeemed children that prove to be obedient to all of the things that Jesus taught, so mankind's salvation comes with one condition, namely, that we exercise faith in Jesus, for only those exercising faith in Jesus will gain eternal life, whereas those that refuse to exercise faith in Jesus will not see life at all.

    This faith that you're "exercising", does that come from you? If so, what's so special about you, that you have it (faith) and others don't?

  • djeggnog
    djeggnog

    @djeggnog wrote:

    Now God, being the epitome of righteousness, could not just pardon our sins without there being a legitimate basis, in fact, for his granting such a pardon to us, and he made it possible for our sins to be pardoned by having his son -- our uncle -- pay the ransom, one perfect life for another perfect life. However, because Jehovah, being our proverbial grandfather, so to speak, is willing to become reconciled with only those of Adam's redeemed children that prove to be obedient to all of the things that Jesus taught, so mankind's salvation comes with one condition, namely, that we exercise faith in Jesus, for only those exercising faith in Jesus will gain eternal life, whereas those that refuse to exercise faith in Jesus will not see life at all. Jesus, therefore, became a ransom, not in exchange for all of Adam's descendants, but in exchange for many, in exchange for those that would obediently put faith in Jesus, who would thus become inevitably our prophetic "Eternal Father," becoming for us what Adam did not become for us.

    @Deputy Dog wrote:

    This faith that you're "exercising", does that come from you?

    Yes, of course.

    If so, what's so special about you, that you have it (faith) and others don't?

    It would be rather vague for me to state here that "others don't" have faith, for just the other day someone shared with me his belief that because his recently-deceased father was saved, telling me how he has faith that he is now living in heaven with Jesus, having moved into one of those mansions that was held in reservation for him in view of the fact that his father had accepted the Lord as his savior early-on as a teenager at the church of which he had continued to be a member, the same church he would attend during holidays and for special occasions until his death.

    I immediately told him that according to Luke 22:26-30, people like his father would be among those as privileged as were Jesus' apostles to sit on thrones in heaven as kings with Jesus judging the world during Judgment Day. I then asked him if his father had been a minister at that church or at some other church to which he replied that his father had not been a minister of any church. I then asked him if his father had ever told him that he had received the holy calling of God that had appointed him to be a preacher. (2 Timothy 1:8-11) He told me his father wasn't a preacher.

    Since Jesus is the one that gives power to those humans that become sons of God due to their having exercised faith in Jesus' name, I asked him if he knew what Jesus' name stood for. (John 1:12; Ephesians 1:5-7) He told me that he didn't know what Jesus' name stood for.

    I asked him if he had any idea why it was Jesus had urged his apostles to whom he had promised mansions to not just put faith in God, but to also put faith in him, too. (John 14:1) He told me that Jesus is God and that Jesus was saying that we need to believe in God.

    I told him that according to the Bible, the apostles were preachers that definitely knew God's name and knew that for which Jesus' name stood, and that this is why Jesus gave them power to become children of God, who would sit on thrones in heaven as kings with him. I also told him that Jesus' name stood for the ransom in which all Christians, whether they receive a holy calling or not, must exercise faith to be saved, and that the fact that his father wasn't a preacher suggested to me that his father would likely be among the many people that would rise on the last day, during Judgment Day, and come out from their graves, but that by Judgment Day, we'll all know what kind of resurrection he received.

    I pointed out to him that while it is true that Jesus' name stands for the ransom, many folks are not exercising faith in Jesus' name, but are just extolling Jesus' personal name, which is very different than putting faith in what his name means. Many people don't know a thing about the ransom and yet this is the very thing in which we must put our faith. Christians and non-Christians give honor to the personal name of Jesus when they enter a church service in the same way that Christians and non-Christians alike give honor to the personal name of the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., but honoring someone's name is not the same thing as exercising faith in either Jesus or in Dr. King.

    When we read at John 3:16 that 'whosoever believes in Jesus will have everlasting life,' Jesus is there talking about the need for us to exercise faith in the ransom that his name represents. The only way that any of us can be saved is by our putting faith in the ransom, which is what John 3:16 is talking about when this verse refers to believing in Jesus. Anyway, I will probably be talking to this individual one day next week.

    What's special about me is that I put my faith in "the good news of Jesus and the resurrection" by accepting Jesus' ransom. (Acts 17:18) I have faith that my sins have been pardoned by God because I am obediently listening to Jesus. (Matthew 17:5) As a result, I have faith that Jesus considers me faithful due to my having accepted my share in the Christian ministry in recognition of those appointed by Jesus to give to all Christians today their spiritual food at the proper time through whose word I came to put faith in Jesus' name. (1 Timothy 1:12; Matthew 24:45-47; John 17:20)

    Look: Every human being has a spiritual need for the benefits that accrue from the ransom, but they hardly know a thing about it, and anyone that does know, but isn't ministering to the spiritual needs of others in this regard by sharing with them the good news of Jesus is someone lacking in faith.

    @djeggnog

  • designs
    designs

    Won't the Christians all be surprised when they are greeted by the Jews who got to Paradise ahead of them.

  • cofty
    cofty
    cofty
    Aren't you the one telling me in a previous thread, how you never felt completely free as a Christian, and you felt you were being controlled (though not to the same degree as when you were a JW)?
    That is a symptom of not understanding "justification". - Deputy Dog

    No I never said that, I was a very happy christian for 9 years. Its only in retrospect I came to appreciate how similiar the christain world is to the borg.

    djeggnog - you are recapitulating the legalistic nonsense that was invented by Russell and further refined by Rutherford.

  • djeggnog
    djeggnog

    @cofty wrote

    I know; that was the whole theme of the article and the reason I became a christian

    @djeggnog wrote:

    There are many that may have heard the good news and that claim to be Christians, but their sins have not been pardoned because they fail to exercise faith in Jesus.

    As I said above...

    I was not implying that anything in addition to Jesus' death was necessary.

    @djeggnog wrote:

    [Well, there should have been such an implication, since Jesus' death was the payment of the ransom price that was needed to satisfy justice. Something in addition to Jesus' death is definitely necessary for salvation.

    Adam had squandered away his right to live through his disobedience, which made him a murderer in that he killed all mankind -- both you and me -- that were yet unborn in his loins when he elected to sin against God, and there was absolutely no way that God could pardon his unpardonable, deliberate sin since Adam was a perfect man. But God's love for the world (as yet unborn) prompted him to take the extraordinary action he did in sending his only-begotten son from heaven to be born here on earth as Adam's perfect brother to redeem Adam's debt, which debt his offspring incurred, so that we all were sold into bondage to sin and death that we had come to inherit from our father, Adam, who forfeited his right to live, so that he could not be redeemed in that he had to die for his wilful sin committed against God.

    Just as Adam's sin led to all of his offspring incurring his debt for sin, which debt we would never be able to satisfy, our "uncle" Jesus' death redeemed the sins of all of us, his "nieces" and "nephews," so to speak, thus effecting a release that lifted the curse of sin from all of Adam's children. By making this provision of the ransom possible in having Jesus step in as Adam's brother to redeem us, this became God's gift to us, since what God did was an undeserved kindness to us, and there was really no other way that we could have been redeemed, except through the payment of this precious ransom price since no other human the equal of Adam had been born to woman that would ever have been able to pay to God in satisfaction of justice. But this release does not grant a pardon to anyone.

    Now God, being the epitome of righteousness, could not just pardon our sins without there being a legitimate basis, in fact, for his granting such a pardon to us, and he made it possible for our sins to be pardoned by having his son -- our uncle -- pay the ransom, one perfect life for another perfect life. However, because Jehovah, being our "grandfather", so to speak, is willing to become reconciled with only those of Adam's redeemed children that prove to be obedient to all of the things that Jesus taught, so mankind's salvation comes with one condition, namely, that we exercise faith in Jesus, for only those exercising faith in Jesus will gain eternal life, whereas those that refuse to exercise faith in Jesus will not see life at all. Jesus, therefore, became a ransom, not in exchange for all of Adam's descendants, but in exchange for many, in exchange for those that would obediently put faith in Jesus, who became our prophetic "Eternal Father," thus becoming the father for us that Adam did not become for us.

    Anyone that should claim to be saved ought to be putting faith in Jesus, but anyone that is not doing the will of the Father will not be granted a pardon since salvation is conditioned upon our putting faith in the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ, whose ransom is actually what laid the basis for our being given the opportunity to inherit eternal life in the first place, but it is our acceptance in faith of the ransom paid by Jesus Christ that permits God to pardon our sins and grant salvation to us.]

    @cofty wrote:

    djeggnog - you are recapitulating the legalistic nonsense that was invented by Russell and further refined by Rutherford.

    Whether my description of the ransom here is "legalistic nonsense" would be, of course, your opinion, but it would be my opinion that things pertaining to justice are legalistic in nature. Now considering that in the Bible, at Matthew 20:28, reference is made there to Jesus as being "a ransom for many" (KJV), and I've already provided a description of what the ransom consists, I'd be interested in hearing your description of how Jesus became such.

    @djeggnog

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    djeggnog

    I asked:

    This faith that you're "exercising", does that come from you?

    You said:

    Yes, of course.

    I guess that's the difference between us, I believe that faith is a gift from God to his children.

  • godrulz
    godrulz

    Eph. 2:8-10 Calvinist say that faith is a gift of God. The Greek grammar here actually links salvation as the gift of God. Grace is the Godward aspect (grounds), while faith in the manward aspect (conditions) involving our mind and will in response to the conviction and convincing of the Holy Spirit. This does not mean we save ourselves since we do not provide nor initiate salvation. If faith was a unilateral, causative gift, then why are all not saved (universalism; double predestination issues)?

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    Bookmarked

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