FAITH, the biggest excuse for IGNORANCE.

by nicolaou 111 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • JonathanH
    JonathanH

    You do realize that the "evidence: you seek for God is philosophical and not scientific, right?

    Scientifc evidence is based on our perception of the natural world as we know it, God is NOT part of that "natural" world (not in the way most see it) nor is God "slave" to our perception.

    No, the god hypothesis would still be a scientific one as long as it's theistic. Deism would be philosophical because it would consider something that has nothing to do with our universe (or may be the universe itself). But a theistic god is one that has interaction with the natural world, which is a claim that puts it squarely in the realm of science. As long as religion claims that a specific god is acting in a specific way in our universe it is still a question that can be tested by science. It would only be outside of the scientific scope of the deity in question had absolutely no interaction or preference involving the natural universe.

  • JonathanH
    JonathanH

    To put it more accurately, if god did not exist in this universe, or was beyond the human scope of perception, then that would only mean that science would be unable to explain what this god is made of, and how it manages to operate, but the question of whether or not it existed and was involved with our universe would still be a valid question to consider.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento
    To put it more accurately, if god did not exist in this universe, or was beyond the human scope of perception, then that would only mean that science would be unable to explain what this god is made of, and how it manages to operate, but the question of whether or not it existed and was involved with our universe would still be a valid question to consider.

    To consider yes, but prove? How so?

    But a theistic god is one that has interaction with the natural world, which is a claim that puts it squarely in the realm of science. As long as religion claims that a specific god is acting in a specific way in our universe it is still a question that can be tested by science. It would only be outside of the scientific scope of the deity in question had absolutely no interaction or preference involving the natural universe.

    Ok, so what you are saying is that IF God acts in THIS universe and his acts can be "measured" then God can be supposed to exist?

  • designs
    designs

    Whether you are a fervent believer in the Second Coming, Rapture, or Armageddon you have to make some pretty long leaps over logic and reality to keep Hope alive.

  • JonathanH
    JonathanH

    First of all, let's get the idea of proof out of the way. Proof is for logic and mathematics, for everything else there is evidence which lends probability to a claim. More evidence the greater the probablity, and the clearer the picture becomes. But due to "philosophical" reasons, actualy proof can only be offered up in terms of pure mathematics and logic.

    As for proving the god hypothesis, Elijah did a "scientific" test of whether or not god exists, and his god specifically (of course any rational person chalks this up to myth, but I will use this as an example). Elijah met with the prophets of baal to do a scientific experiment to offer credible evidence that he had god's blessing and they did not. They got together and both offered sacrifices to be burnt up, the prophets of baal beseeched their god and no fires burned up their sacrifice. Elijah prayed to his god and flames came from the heavens and burned up his sacrifice. It was a perfectly scientific way to go about it. There was a hypothesis, a control group, a prediction, peer review (though he did kill the peer review group afterwards) and it was repeatable (since he did it a few times more to burn up soldiers sent to arrest him).

    God willingly submitted himself to a scientific test to prove that he not only existed, but had a preference. Or at least that's how the story goes. Just because the greeks said zeus smited some people doesn't make it so. But that would be a perfectly valid means of testing the god hypothesis, and one that even god (hypothetically) agrees would be a valid way to verify it.

    Call me when biologos or William Lane Craig manages to pass James Randy's challenge on the supernatural.

    The James Randy challenge for any who are unfamiliar with it, is a challenge that offers up a million dollars to any psychic, faith healer, mystic ect that is willing to come in and put their claims to scientific scrutiny. They have to offer their hypothesis, there has to be control groups, a double blind, predictions, repeated testing and review. So far virtually no one has taken him up on it, and no one has passed it.

  • Pika_Chu
    Pika_Chu

    The idea that miracles and alternative interpretations refute criticism is just not valid. When faced with the possibility that either a biblical passage is scientifically incorrect or it is explainable by the supernatural, the faithful will pick the latter, under the presupposition that the Bible is ALREADY accurate and inspired. The conclusion that the Bible is still accurate depends on the already-made conclusion/premise that the correct option must already be the one relayed in the text. It's shoe-horning the evidence to fit an assumption.

    Perfect example: did Issaiah say the Earth was a flat circle or a sphere? If you said "sphere," congratulations! It's only true because you want it to be. At the very most, all you are saying is that it is possibly accurate. It COULD be a sphere. But it could also be a flat circle. The only thing leading you to the former conclusion is your already established idea that the Bible is correct. Which is identical to the very notion you are trying to prove. It's circular and based on assumptions.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    Johnathan,

    I asked:

    Ok, so what you are saying is that IF God acts in THIS universe and his acts can be "measured" then God can be supposed to exist?

    What is your answer?

    As for the Elijah story, we also have the Jesus Story- water into wine, feeding 1000's, raising the dead muiltiple times even a guy that had been dead for days, being ressurected and yes, not ALL believed, as not all believed Elijah, heck even the egyptians after all they supposedly saw, didn't believe ( or at least didn't fear).

    Acts of evidence like that truly mean very little and can be "written off" eventually, as we see.

    Has James Randi extend his challenge to the scientists that believe in a multi -universe of mluti-dimensional plane?

    No? why? because that is the type of argument we are having in regards to proving what is outside the universe we KNOW.

    If Man can repeat a "miracle" attributed to God, would that mean that miracles are possible and would that mean that God is possible?

  • JonathanH
    JonathanH

    The elijah story was just that, a story. I was using it as an example of god submitting to the scientific method and showing that he can be tested scientifically by the theology that christians subscribe too, I wasn't suggesting that it was in anyway true. Saying people didn't believe jesus is irrelevant because I am not submitting that those stories were factual. In my opinion, nobody believed him because he didn't do it.

    Your bringing up multi-universal models and hypothesis only shows your inability to differentiate scientific thinking from religious thinking. Scientists don't "believe" we live in a multiverse, they posit the idea as a mathematical model to test it's explanatory power. It has a degree of explanatory power (at least on paper right now) and thusly get's a possibility of being considered true. If it eventually is found to have a high degree of explanatory power and also predictive power then it would be upgraded to a solid theory and would be considered as naturalistic as our universe. But as of now that hasn't happened, so it is only a model. I doubt James Randy would put it up for scientists working within a particular mathematical model because he would understand the difference between a model, a hypothesis, assigning a probability to something being true, and somebody saying "I can heal lepers with the bible". When somebody says "I can use quantum physics to read your mind!" I'm sure he'd let that person take the test, if somebody said "I can demonstrate that their are multiple planes of reality!" then that person would also have a shot at the million dollars. Because they are not working with a model to explore possibilities, they are making definite supernatural claims.

    If a man could make a testable hypothesis as Elijah did (IE, Jesus has given me the power to heal terminal cancer with the bible), and then submitted that to rigorous scientific scrutiny (something along the line of having him do his thing to 100 patients, monitoring the results, and have a control group where the people think somebody is healing them but it's just an experienced magician that knows how faith healing works, compare the results over a period of time, then perhaps have the "real" healer blindfold himself and give him a koran, and then a bible, and then harry potter to test the specificity of the god, and then submit it for peer review to see if some one else can get a similar result by different means and explain how they did it in such a way that excludes that they were using jesus power to heal, or something to that effect. A good scientist could come up with a rigorous test), and passed those tests that would work as valid evidence for the hypothesis as much as anything would. According to Elijah, God would be able and willing to do this. It wouldn't convince everybody, but there are still people out there that think the sun moves around the earth, I think God could be given a pass for submitting sufficient evidence on human terms according to the scientific method.

    This is a debate that atheists PZ Meyers and Jerry Coyne had recently. PZ says there could be no evidence for god on the basis that the word "god" is so poorly defined, and nobody can agree on exactly what it is or what qualities it possesses, or in what way it even interacts with the universe, it would be impossible to find evidence for it. It would be like testing for the existence of gobbledygook. Jerry Coyne (whom I'm more in line with on this topic) submits that while you may not be able to find evidence for "god" (as being poorly defined) you can hypothetically test and find evidence for a being that created life on earth and inspired the writing of a particular holy book, and has certain qualities such as being "all knowing", and has specific demands on the human race, that will face consequences for disobeying. Even if this being was actually an alien or something, it would be irrelevant because it still fits the definition and can be said to be the "god" people are referencing when they speak of the abrahamic god of the bible.

  • JonathanH
    JonathanH

    Also just so anyone involved knows, I'll be afk for a bit. I might not be back till saturday morning, just depends on when I get a free moment to continue this lively discussion. But I will definitely check back in as soon as I get a chance.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    So, can science prove what it can't disprove?

    Science can't prove that God doesn't exist correct?, so can it prove that God does?

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit