Putin-powerful, but not his own power

by proplog2 32 Replies latest jw friends

Geordie

*Looks at his own picture.*
"Damn. this could mean me."
Seeker

This is NOT coincidence.
Of COURSE it is. You need to study the area of coincidence more to see just how often such patterns randomly occur all the time. Humans find amazing patterns in everything. Doesn't necessarily prove a thing, and it IS coincidence.
Thomas Poole

Pro... You wandered into a herd of elephants. They have good memories and you're getting step on. Oh what elephant feet they have.
This has turn out to be a rather funny post.
I like Pushkin the Russian poet very much.
proplog2

Seeker:
<<You need to study the area of coincidence more to see just how <<often such patterns randomly occur all the time. Humans find <<amazing patterns in everything. Doesn't necessarily prove a thing, <<and it IS coincidence.
I am quite familiar with probability. Let's look at the probabilities .
1. Final power on earth described as being partly strong and partly
weak. (Dan 2) Part iron and part clay. Iron which was the
principle metal of weapons would symbolize military strength. Clay
is suggestive of the human element. Russia still has its iron fist
(nuclear weapons) but has not managed its nationalities problem.
Russia never became a melting pot.
Total similarities = 2
2. Last king on earth described as being 1. stern-faced 2. master
of deception 3. Source of his power -not his own.
Putin has been described frequently as having a stern face.
References are made to the ambiguity of his policies. He praises
the press at the same time he closes down television stations and
persecutes reporters. He was unknown politically and came to power
through appointment and Yeltsins strategic resignation.
Total similarities = 3
3. The final struggle comes down to two entities. One is North of
the other. The northern king finally is victorious over the
southern king. The southern king engages in provocative actions to
which the northern king responds with a great show of force
destroying the southern king.
Total similarities = 3
4. Revelation describes the two entities involved in the final
battle for earthly control. One is called Babylon the Great which
is the richest government on earth (USA) Babylon the Great
exercises hegemony over all other governments primarily by means of
it's alliances with ruling elites. The other entity is described
as the last head of a succession of world powers. This last head
appears to be slaughtered but it revives. Upon its resurrection
there is something lamblike about it but it eventually reverts to
its dragon like nature. The USSR/Russia is the only empire in
modern days which has gone through such a transformation. It died
in 1991. There is no USSR occupying any geographical space. The
seventh head of the beast is described in Johns day as not having
arrived but that it would have a short life. The USSR has had the
shortest life of any of the heads of the beasts. From 1917 to 1991
for a total of 74 years. There are 10 horns/kings that are
associated with and emerge from the seventh head. Depending on
whether Belarus merges with Russia the CIS consists of 11 (Beast
plus 10 horns). Russia is very interested in organizing these
kings into an answer to NATO.
Total similarities = 6 (minimum)
There are a total of 14 very good matches. These matches deal with
events that are significant ie. Geographical relationships,
comparative wealth, political maneuvering, duration of existence,
extent of influence, nature of last king. None of these things are
obscure points.
Is it possible to figure the odds of these 14 things to coincide.
Is it possible to make some kind of probable estimate of these
coincidences.
All of these things involve a minimum of two possibilities. They
either happen or they don't happen. So at the very least the
probability of each single event by itself is 50% If you think the
probability is higher or lower it would mean you have some unusual
insight into the causes of these events. It is safest to assume
that no one could do anything more than flip a coin to predict
these events. The probability of predicting a coin toss 14 times
in a row is 0.00012 Even if you knock out 4 of the coincidences
for some reason you still are confronted with trying to pick 10
coin tosses in a row which has a probability of .002
GOOD LUCK? JUST THE MIND SEEING PATTERNS? MERE COINCIDENCE? I
don't believe this is mere coincidence. It is for this reason that
I believe the rest of Daniel & Revelation will happen.
No we're not talking logic. But we are talking induction.
Induction works quite well in science. In fact I prefer the word
"induction" to the word "faith".
proplog2

Thomas Poole:
I liked your fathers folk wisdom. I realize that in most communities and especially this on-line forum there is a culture of ridicule when it comes to prophecy.
Past failures are used as a criteria for current efforts. This is a mistake. Modern interpretations should be considered on the basis if there really seems to be a fit. It is easy to discount prophecy when it fails. But the objective should be to determine if a prophecy is false in advance. This can be done by presenting a comprehensive and coherent alternative or by knocking down the inconsistent claims.
I invite anyone here to do so.
Short of that, I believe my interpretation is better than anything out there.
Seeker

Proplog,
You've been seeing these patterns for years. Right now it happens to be Putin. In a few years you'll have a new leader to find those patterns in. It is coincidence because interpretation of Daniel is subjective. What does "deceptive" mean? What does "stern" mean? In political contexts, that describes just about every politician that ever lived, if you interpret it the right way.
But hey, believe what you want. In time, Putin will be gone and you'll see everything in this thread was just coincidence. Mark my words.
aChristian

Proplog:
You may end up being right about Russian communism. And maybe even about Putin still being at the helm when its big time comeback happens. I will, however, take issue with your tagging the USA as "Babylon the Great."
Revelation indicates that Babylon the Great is an entity that exists at the time of Christ's return. So it may not now even exist at all. It is an entity that will at the time of Christ's return "commit fornication with the kings of the earth." Many Christians believe that shortly before Christ's return all nations on earth will join together to form one world government under the direction of the Antichrist. If this is true, and if most Christian Church organizations then endorse this one world government and its leader, who may then claim to be Christ himself, as being worthy of Christian support and allegiance, their actions at that time may constitute spiritual fornication. This act of spiritual fornication may then act to identify them as being part of Babylon the Great.
I think it is helpful to remember what Babylon was. It was a nation which held God's people in bondage. God's people then were the nation of Israel. Today God's people are Christians. Who now holds most of the world's Christians in bondage? Legalistic Christian Church organizations, a term which accurately describes, to some degree, all Christian sects.
So Revelation's "Babylon the Great" may portray all Christian sects which lend their support to the Antichrist shortly before Christ's return. I think this understanding makes more sense than your "USA" understanding. Especially when we consider the religious overtones to what Revelation 18 says about BTG.
"cargoes of gold, silver, precious stones and pearls; fine linen, purple, silk and scarlet cloth; every sort of citron wood, and articles of every kind made of ivory, costly wood, bronze, iron and marble; cargoes of cinnamon and spice, of incense, myrrh and frankincense, of wine and olive oil, of fine flour and wheat; cattle and sheep; horses and carriages; and bodies and souls of men. ... dressed in fine linen, purple and scarlet, and glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls! ... The music of harpists and musicians, flute players and trumpeters, will never be heard in you again. ... The light of a lamp will never shine in you again. The voice of bridegroom and bride will never be heard in you again. ... By your magic spell all the nations were led astray."
proplog2

Seeker:
There are very specific ways Putin appears as both stern-faced and deceptive:
THURSDAY, JANUARY 6, 2000
USA
WASHINGTON DOSSIER
To US, Putin is a riddle wrapped in a mystery
New Russian leader's posture toward US will affect everything from
missile defense to arms control.
Justin Brown
Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor
WASHINGTON
Russia's Acting President Vladimir Putin is likely to be among the
most important world leaders the US will have to negotiate with in
the coming years.
As master of the world's second-largest nuclear arsenal, his
actions will help determine the course of the American military -
as well as US plans to build a national missile defense. And a
driving force behind the war in Chechnya, he will determine whether
there will be chaos or stability in a region that has become the
front line between Christianity and Islam.
But to the dismay of some US officials, Mr. Putin is also a
surprisingly unknown element - his true identity veiled by campaign
rhetoric, silence on crucial issues, and years of work as an
intelligence officer in the former East Germany.
Editorial: The New Russian Order
Since Putin became, in succession, prime minister, the leading
presidential candidate, and, with the New Year's Eve resignation of
Boris Yeltsin, acting president, US officials have been struggling
to get a handle on the STERN-FACED upstart, who is almost
universally described as "pragmatic."
DanielHaase

OH, blah blah blah. You put much too much emphasis on man-made prophesy. How many leaders in the history of the world had those charactaristcs? Hitler, Lenin, Mao, Mussolini...the list goes on and on. You are paranoid that the world may one day be finally rid of religion, trusting people to use reason and compassion in their life and actions instead of superstition. God forbid!
aChristian

Proplog,
One problem with your Putin interpretation of Daniel is that history seems to strongly indicate that the prophecies contained in Daniel 8 and 12 were all fulfilled during the reign of Syrian king Antiochus Epiphanes. The following information can be found in history books and various Bible commentaries.
In 174 BC Jason, the brother of High Priest Onias III, secured the High Priesthood for himself by bribing Syrian king Antiochus Epiphanes. Jason's actions thereafter, such as promoting Jewish participation in athletic competitions dedicated to the Greek God Hercules and sending silver from the Temple treasury to be sacrificed to that false god, caused the Temple priests to despise the Temple and neglect the sacrifices which were required by the Jewish law. History tells us that this corrupted Jewish worship, which began with the appointment of Jason as High Priest, was not cleansed from the Temple until mid December, 168 BC. This was some 2300 days after Jason's appointment as High Priest. Some 400 years earlier Daniel had prophecied, "After 2,300 days the sanctuary will be cleansed." (Dan.8:14)
In 171 BC Menelaus, a Jew not born of the line of Aaron, managed to have himself appointed as High Priest in place of Jason by offering Antiochus a larger bribe than Jason's. Since Menelaus was not of the line of Aaron, in fact not even a Levite, his being set up as High Priest was "an abomination" to God. And since he was not permitted by Jewish law, as were other High Priests, to "daily offer up sacrifices, first for their own sins and then the sins of the people" (Heb. 7:27), "the daily sacrifice" was then "abolished" in God's eyes. During the next 1,290 days Menelaus actively assisted Antiochus in bringing about the total "desolation" of the Jewish religion. Some 400 years earlier Daniel had prophesied, "From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up there will be 1,290 days." (Dan. 12:11) *
In mid December of 168 BC Jerusalem's Temple was cleansed of the corrupted Jewish worship which was brought about by the actions of Jason and Menelaus. This cleansing took place when Antiochus Epiphenes outlawed all practices of the then corrupted Jewish religion. 2,300 days of corrupted Jewish worship then came to an end. 1,290 days had also then passed since Menelaus, the "abomination" who had "abolished the daily sacrifice" and caused the "desolation" of the Jewish religion, had been set up as High Priest.
In mid December of 165 BC the revolt of the Maccabees reestablished undefiled Jewish worship in Jerusalem's Temple. In the middle of 164 BC Antiochus Epiphanes died and was succeeded by his son, Antiochus Eupator.
Later in 164 BC, some 1,335 days after Antiochus Epiphanes had outlawed the Jewish religion, his son and successor, Antiochus Eupator, made a peace treaty with the Jews which guaranteed them religious freedom. Some 400 years earlier Daniel had prophecied, "Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days." (Dan.12:12)
With these historical facts in mind, there is no reason to believe that any of the prophecies contained in Daniel chapters 8 and 12 remain to be fulfilled. For those prophecies of Daniel appear to have been completely fulfilled between the years 174 and 164 BC. Now, I suppose, you can say you expect a second fulfillment, a "type - antitype" sort of thing, but doing so is certainly highly speculative.
* Daniel actually peophecied of two "abominations" that would "desolate" the Jewish religion. Jesus clearly indicated that Dan. 9:27 referred to the Roman armies which would destroy Jerusalem in 70 AD. (Matt. 24:15; Mark 13:14; Luke 21:20) While Jewish history shows that Dan. 12:11 referred to the total desolation of the Jewish religion which was brought about by the Jew's own High Priest, Menelaus, and the king of Syria, Antiochus Epiphanes.

Putin-powerful, but not his own power

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