2 Thessalonians issue

by Mat 41 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  wobble

  Dear Mat,

  The titling of a piece "Matthew" and letting people from later times assume it was perhaps Matthew the Apostle who wrote it is not the sort of thing we condone today, but it was frequently done around the 1st and 2nd centuries. Gospels of "Thomas" and "Peter" etc.

  I think the contempory readers viewd this subterfuge a little less harshly than we would today, that is why I find the use of the words "fake" and "lies" just a little out of place, though they are in fact accurate to a great degree. We do not know how much the writers set out to deliberately mis-lead their readers.

  I personally feel that The Gospel of Matthew, which is why I use it as an example, was written to deceive to a great degree, in that its motive force is the expansion of the Jesus cult, the growing of the Jesus myth, not an attempt to record truth.

  The more important point you make about world leaders and others basing their decisions and actions on books of doubtful, or vitually no, provenance, like the Bible and the Q'uran, is a valid and quite frightening one, but you are spot on.

  I would prefer my leaders to be educated so as to make decisions,and take action, based on rational well informed appreciation of the circumstances and problems they are dealing with.

  Any action taken, or belief held even, based on myth, legend and out of date wisdom has got to be asking for disaster.
• 

  Heaven

  Why would God want a 'dickhead' or a 'dick' to be one of the writers and contributors to his Holy Book?
• 

  Mat

  Hi Deputy Dog, you say:

  He was alive when he wrote it. He didn't know the day or the hour of Christ's return. He did not know who would be alive or dead including himself.

  Well, obviously he didn't know! But from the scripture we are discussing it is clear that Paul believed that he would be among the living on the day of the Lord. It is also clear that he made his contemporary generation believe the Lords day would be in their lifetime. So much for God's inspiration eh? When years passed and many Christians started to doubt, rather than apologise for building false hopes, he (or someone, but I reckon it was him,) writes a snotty letter telling the Thessalonians that it is their own fault for getting it wrong! He tells them they didn't listen to him properly! It's just like how the Watchtower have handled the 1975 issue and the Generation of 1914.

  It proves that these texts are not inspired, and that the writer of them was just as manipulative and unethical as the Watchtower Society is today.
• 

  tec

  I personally say 'we' when I speak of humanity as a whole, even if I'm speaking of a future or past date... where I either wasn't born yet, or will be long dead.

  "We, humanity, are responsible for the state of the world." Past, present and future.

  We who are alive will be caught up with Christ. Present or future. We being those of us who belong to Him.

  I don't see Paul using we in a different context as the above. Its is the same as saying 'those of us who are alive' equates to 'We who are alive'.

  That's the way I read it.

  Tammy
• 

  Mat

  Nice try Tammy, but there is a difference between "those who are alive" and "we who are alive". You know interpretation is easier if you stop trying to rationalise around the premise that it is the truth.
• 

  tec

  I agree there is a difference between those who are alive, and we who are alive. But that isn't what I said. I said those of US who are alive equates to we who are alive.

  It doesn't mean that the person speaking must be alive for the statement to be true. It only means that the people he is identifying himself with - and this could or could not include him.

  Tammy
• 

  Mat

  All I can say is I'm glad you guys are happy in your faith, even if I don't share it.
• 

  Deputy Dog

  Mat

  Well, obviously he didn't know! But from the scripture we are discussing it is clear that Paul believed that he would be among the living on the day of the Lord. It is also clear that he made his contemporary generation believe the Lords day would be in their lifetime. So much for God's inspiration eh?

  Paul and his "contemporary generation" and others, down through years believed that the Day of the Lord COULD (not would) come during their lifetimes.
• 

  Mat

  Hi DD. Ok, if you say so. This was not meant to be a challenge to people's faith. I guess I got it wrong. People just mis-read what Paul meant in 1 Thess, and 2 Thess just clarifies the misunderstanding. I don't really belieave that, but I'll go along with it for the sake of peace.
• 

  Deputy Dog

  Mat

  "It proves that these texts are not inspired,"

  We must have a different idea of what we mean by "inspired".

  "...and that the writer of them was just as manipulative and unethical as the Watchtower Society is today."

  That's a very serious charge with no evidence.

  Even if you believe Paul got it wrong (obviously we disagree about that), there is still a giant difference between Paul getting it wrong, and WT lies.

  You're adding to Ehrman's unsupported charge.

  I agree with you about the WT. But, just because the WT is what it is, that should have no bearing on the inspiration of the bible, or even Paul's intent or ethics, as a writer.

  When we look at the quote of the WT you used:

  Watchtower-1976-July-15-p.441

  "If anyone has been disappointed through not following this line of thought, he should now concentrate on adjusting his viewpoint, seeing that it was not the word of God that failed or deceived him and brought disappointment,but that his own understanding was based on wrong premises."

  The WT blames the reader for it's own false/failed prophecy. Where did Paul do that? Paul never gave a date or time. Paul was simply dealing with the issue of the death of believers before Christ's return. He even emphasizes what Jesus taught about what had to come first.

  Again, Apples and rotten watermelons.

  "I don't really belieave that, but I'll go along with it for the sake of peace."

  It doesn't matter to me if you go along. I'm at peace with God. You're the one that has to live your life. It's OK to disagree.

  I hope we can still be friends. I've never been a JW, so I won't shun anyone.