Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 04-10-2011 WT Study (CREATION)

by blondie 41 Replies latest jw friends

  • witnessdater
    witnessdater

    If you look at Hamsters examples of mutations that have occured for instance, you will see one constant argument being made - that the mutations helped the SURVIVAL of the species. He made not one argument that kindeys, livers, skin, brains were created by mutation. His argument goes nowhere. Obviously, there are mutations. Obviously, natural selection is a logical and real occurence. Either alone or put together, they create nothing.

    Scientifically speaking, more than anything the law of irreducible complexity proves creation to me. For the cell to work, it can't be built piece by piece over millions of years. And the exact mutations that needed to occur to maintain survival, if it were possible for the cell to survive are again incalculable. The cell must work, all at one time. And if a cell appears alltogether, all at one time, that is creation, the very definition.

  • hamsterbait
    hamsterbait

    Witnessdater -

    In your post prior to mine you said that "all known mutations are destructive". I fail to see the insult in pointing out examples that directly contradict this claim. or that there "is not one mutation that improved something" is just a downright LIE.

    I fail to see after you throw out comments that people who favor atheism, or believe - your abusive term : "anything" why you would be insulted because these same people whose widely divergent beliefs do not agree with yours would find silence most welcome.

    The creation / we are here & dont know why argument has been dealt with so many times on this board that I am not going to participate in yet another round of fruitless arguing. All your points have been efficiently dismissed too often here.

    HB

  • hamsterbait
    hamsterbait

    BY the way BLONDIE - we love you...

    Thanx for your efforts it saves so much wasted energy, though I wonder how you get through this after all these years without needing meds!!

    I cannot stand the thought of mind pollution. What's your filter system, Honey?

  • drwtsn32
    drwtsn32
    Scientifically speaking, more than anything the law of irreducible complexity proves creation to me.

    What scientific "law" is that? There is no such "law." It was made up by Michael Behe and has been disproven many times. Please take 10 minutes and watch this video. It does a fine job explaining how the human eye could have developed.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W96AJ0ChboU

  • witnessdater
    witnessdater


    Hamster,

    You wrote: "Mutations that remove the ability to speak in ignorant people IMPROVES the overall feelgood factor of people who have acquired (by mutation) the inability to swallow intellectual shit churned out by the former."

    Since this is not an actual mutation, I took it as being directed at anyone who speaks out their belief in creation (like me). Sorry if I took it the wrong way.

    My intent was obviously to say that mutation has never been demonstrated to create a feature or organism, only to alter an existing one. If you know of one, let me know. I will take the absence of that as proof that the fact remains that no mutation has ever been shown to create anything. If you have shot that down before, please do again, it shouldn't be that hard for you. As far as I know, this is not an atheist or a creationist board. It is a board regarding the WTBTS. You spoke out on the subject of non-creationism first, then I spoke.

  • drwtsn32
    drwtsn32
    If you know of one, let me know.

    Sure, how about a simple one. This is nice, too, because it was actually observed in the lab. (This entire thing was a lab experiment, after all.)

    http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14094-bacteria-make-major-evolutionary-shift-in-the-lab.html

    Your statement that mutations never add features/capabilities is flat out wrong.

  • witnessdater
    witnessdater

    Both very powerful, the video and the news story. Several comments though.

    One, the news story was from 2008. Why has this not been on the front page of the NY Times, who screams from the rooftops any advance made in the advance of evolutionary theory? It seems this would have been a well known story by now. I suspect that the reason it never took off is that it is dealing with bacteria, just as one of hamsters arguments did. A cell does not live on its own. Bacterium do. It is an organism on its own. And no bacteria has been ever demonstrated to turn into a cell. The bacteria didn't turn into anything new, as the bird Hamster cited also did not turn into anything new. It gained an ability to process some chemical. Is there even a theory out there that postulates HOW a human cell might have evolved, all the way from amino acids, and how it could have been done in the time alloted? The assertions made by the speaker should most definitely be fact-checked. The reality is that Stephen Hawking is to the point of declaring that the laws of gravity and physics THEMSELVES created the universe (with pre-existing matter I suppose - whoops, no, that wouldn't be creating). That is where anti-creationism and/or atheism is now. That is the newest theory, put forth only weeks ago from the smartest man in the world.

    For the video, the first thing I noticed is that it took a very long time to put forth what it was TRYING to say. First, why would "light-sensitive cells" ever exist in the first place? Did they evolve into more focused eyes later? The video showed several different animals which had varying degrees of light sensitivity or focus. Have the fossils confirmed from one of these species to the other that they evolved from one another? I have seen nothing in that regard for confirmation. The very occurence of "light-sensitive cells" occuring in just the right cells in the right place, what are the chances?? With no intent by anyone, no knowledge of the cells themselves of what they wanted to be? Why didn't the light sensitive cells show up in my skin or heart instead? Again, take away any portion of a cell, and it will not live, and certainly not without an organism that supports it, with all of the thousands of chemical reactions which take place in all of our cells everyday. Way, way out on a limb are the evolutionists. Ask Stephen Hawking where he is. It simply seems that were this any kind of a viable theory, major documentaries and coherent movies would have been made about it. Plenty of money exists among those believing no God to get the right scientists together, and prove it once and for all. We are talking about physical sciences, with archeological proof to be displayed. It isn't there. It is just a guess, but an improbable reality. There is a cause for everything. There must be an ultimate uncaused cause. I call that uncaused cause "God".

    The general feeling is that for all of this to happen by chance, and in the correct sequence for us to all still be here, is a stretch beyond all imagination. Not sure I am spelling it correctly, but "Ockham's Razor" says that the correct explanation for anything is the simplest one. To absolutely deny the possibility that God created the universe, and us, and hold to a most improbable theory, is all the more reason to exit this place as soon as possible. Otherwise, why stay? To think the thoughts that we are able to think, and to be able to even concieve of God, proves that we are not mere automata. To have free will and choice, among the animals, and concieve of time, space, science, have new ideas proves this. And it cannot be disproven.

  • drwtsn32
    drwtsn32
    One, the news story was from 2008. Why has this not been on the front page of the NY Times ...

    It was pretty big news back in the day. I saw it posted on numerous scientific news sources and even mainstream media. It was quite fascinating but it's not like this was the first or only evidence we have for evolution.

    A cell does not live on its own. Bacterium do. It is an organism on its own. And no bacteria has been ever demonstrated to turn into a cell.

    Huh? Bacteria are single-celled organisms.

    The bacteria didn't turn into anything new ...

    If you expect a radical change to happen in front of your eyes, you have a poor understanding of evolution. The theory of evolution does not predict such observations. Changes take hundreds of thousands/millions of years to happen. We will never see drastic, radical changes happen in front of our eyes, although that would be pretty neat. Such a request is like asking to see the complete life cycle of a star happen before your eyes, from the coalescing of hydrogen gas to its possible demise into a black hole. Ain't gonna happen, but it doesn't mean it doesn't happen in the real world given enough time.

    Is there even a theory out there that postulates HOW a human cell might have evolved, all the way from amino acids, and how it could have been done in the time alloted?

    Yes. Do some reading. "Time alloted" [sic] ? The Earth has been here over 4 billion years. That's a LONG time. Plus it is quite possible the precursors to life arrived at this planet from somewhere else.

    The reality is that Stephen Hawking is to the point of declaring that the laws of gravity and physics THEMSELVES created the universe (with pre-existing matter I suppose - whoops, no, that wouldn't be creating). That is where anti-creationism and/or atheism is now. That is the newest theory, put forth only weeks ago from the smartest man in the world.

    Yes, all interesting and very hypothetical stuff but it has nothing to do with the theory of evolution. The theory of evolution has nothing to do with the origin of the universe. It's a theory about how life changes over time.

    First, why would "light-sensitive cells" ever exist in the first place?

    Random mutation. Remember there is no purpose or goal behind evolution. The raw working material is random mutation (among other things). Once something develops or changes that aids in an organisms survival in its environment, that change tends to "stick."

    Did they evolve into more focused eyes later? The video showed several different animals which had varying degrees of light sensitivity or focus. Have the fossils confirmed from one of these species to the other that they evolved from one another?

    These example species didn't have to evolve one from another. It was an example of eyes that function at various levels of complexity.

    The very occurence of "light-sensitive cells" occuring in just the right cells in the right place, what are the chances?? With no intent by anyone, no knowledge of the cells themselves of what they wanted to be? Why didn't the light sensitive cells show up in my skin or heart instead?

    Such a mutation COULD show up in your heart cells. But since that would provide no advantage to an organism, the mutation would not present an advantage and therefore would most likely fade out of existence. Unused features tend to get removed as it is a waste of biological resources.

    Again, take away any portion of a cell, and it will not live, and certainly not without an organism that supports it, with all of the thousands of chemical reactions which take place in all of our cells everyday.

    Take away any part of an arch and it collapses. If you watched the video you should have learned that "irreducibly complex" is hardly ever actually so.

    Ask Stephen Hawking where he is.

    Stephen Hawking? First of all, he does not believe in a personal god. It wouldn't matter anyway if he did. He may be an extremely intelligent individual, but that doesn't make him right on every topic. Look up "argument from authority."

    It simply seems that were this any kind of a viable theory, major documentaries and coherent movies would have been made about it.

    There are numerous!

    Plenty of money exists among those believing no God to get the right scientists together, and prove it once and for all. We are talking about physical sciences, with archeological proof to be displayed.

    So now it's some sort of conspiracy? Wow.

    It isn't there.

    There is a MOUNTAIN of evidence. Start here if you honestly want to explore it:

    http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/

    There is a cause for everything. There must be an ultimate uncaused cause. I call that uncaused cause "God".

    I agree that there must be some uncaused source. Infinite causality is illogical. However, even the laws of cause and effect may not have applied before the big bang (heck, they break down at the quantum level), so our understanding of cause/effect may not apply before the big bang.

    If you want to call it "God," so be it. But where is your evidence that he exists? That he is the Judeo-Christian God? It seems much more likely to me that some fundamental energy was here at the "beginning" rather than some omnipotent, omniscient being. One is infinitely more complex than the other. Didn't you say something about Occam's Razor?

  • AnnOMaly
    AnnOMaly

    hamsterbait:

    By the way by 1905 Astronomers had telescopes that confirmed the existence of galaxies. This is a deliberate LIE by the FDS.

    The claim in the paragraph was that in 1905 scientists generally believed the extent of our universe consisted of just our Milky Way galaxy. So I looked it up because I also thought 'No way!' But the writer is correct.

    The other galaxies or nebulae that could be seen in telescopes were still considered to be part of our own galaxy, although there were some astronomers who were beginning to disagree due to certain calculations that didn't fit (the distances were too great for them to belong to the Milky Way). It was in the early 1920's that there was a Great Debate about it, and in 1925 or so Hubble put the matter to rest with the discoveries made using the new, more powerful, 100-inch telescope, thereby confirming that there are indeed other galaxies apart from our own and therefore, the universe is far, far bigger than previously thought.

    We can't catch out the WTS writers on this one.

  • witnessdater
    witnessdater

    If the evidence were in and proven, no one would be going to church anymore. It would have been proclaimed that there is no God.

    On the original source of energy, there must have been a source for that. If you can't trust your logic on that, then you cannot trust your logic on any of this. There must have been an "idea" for there to be anything. If you are only a random collection of brain cells and logic is thrown out the window, nothing yo say can have any meaning. Yes, Occam's Razor. The simplest explanation (ask a child) to the question "Where did it all come from?" 99.9% of the time the answer will be God. That is the simplest explanation. Instead of "Okay folks, here's what happened: Against all odds, enough amino acids ended up in the same pool somewhere, had all the right mutations to eventually make a strand of DNA within a cell (this alone would have taken up a billion of the years) Then all of the creatures and plants you see around you were formed from this, branching off from each other. If you want to know how this happened, read entire tomes of writing." That is simple? Nope, God (an intelligent being) is.

    Different question: Do you believe that there is good and evil?

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