Is it possible to define faith in a simple, logical, unambiguous way?

by losthobbit 67 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  losthobbit

  Hi AGuest

  (Peace to you, and everyone on the entire planet)

  Thanks for your reply. It's pretty amazing that your Lord talks to you directly. I was a Christian for thirty years, and God didn't talk to me once. I guess he chooses who to talk to, and for some reason decided that he doesn't like me as much as you. Of course you can understand how I am skeptical that God talks to you, if you have no proof. You can easily prove that God talks to you, by asking him what my bank card pin code is, and then you can type it on this forum...

  Of course the things you mentioned as proofs could easily just have been things which were made up by the writer of the first of the first four books of the New Testament (probably Mark), and then copied by the other three writers when they wrote their version of the story.

  God does many things to eliminate proof of his existence:

  - He is invisible

  - He only talks to people through dreams

  - He made a rule that we are not allowed to put him to the test

  - The only prayers he ever answers are those which might have happened anyway: cures colds, helps people to travel safely, makes people give other people money when they desperately need it, etc... he never fills up an empty petrol tank, heals amputees, etc.

  - He made the world appear to be 5 billion years old, and the universe 13 billion years old, when they are in fact only 6000 years old. He also made the stars appear to be billions of years old, by making the light travel to Earth a million times faster than the speed of light.

  - He no longer does huge miracles, like making animals talk, parting the sea, sending plagues

  - He no longer allows people to be possessed by demons

  - He put mistakes in the bible, as well as many things which appear to be illogical

  This is why one needs faith, because God made sure that there would be no proof.
• 

  Ding

  Losthobbit,

  Faith always has an object: God, the FDS, your car's brakes, your ability to cross a street without getting hurt, etc.

  We usually base our faith (trust in someone or something) based on probabilities based on evidence or reasoning.

  Consider this scale: Faith based on:

  _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

  0.001% probability No information 0.05% probability 50% probability 99.99% probability

  Irrational faith Blind faith Great faith Ordinary faith based on reason "Knowledge": Little faith involved

  A born-in JW has faith in the WTS based on his parents' trustworthiness. This faith is reasonable based on the information he has.

  A person at the door talks to a JW and is converted right away without asking any significant questions or doing any investigation. Trust based on no evidence at all is blind faith. Although we may term this "irrational," more charitably we might chalk this up to "naivete" or desperation.

  A JW gets conflicting evidence. Some things about the WTS seem okay but he sees things that raise doubts. His faith in the organization may or may not be reasonable depending on what he knows.

  Finally, a JW is exposed to all sorts of evidence against the WTS -- false prophecies, doctrinal flipflops, hypocrisy in the organization, Bible verses that contradict WT teachings, historical evidence contradicting WT chronology, Ray's disclosures in CoC, etc. At some point, most objective observers would say that this person's continued faith in the organization is irrational. He believes in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

  Obviously, there are all sorts of variations on this depending on the information the person has, the amount he has access to but ignores, and so on.
• 

  losthobbit

  Thanks Ding, your little chart / table above is a nice, clear way of explaining faith.
• 

  jgnat

  In a conversation with C. S. Lewis (Jack) that later led to Jack's conversion to Christianity, Tolkein spoke of metaphor and myth. They were interrupted by a rush of wind and the fall of autumn leaves around them that filled each with a sense of awe.

  When faith tries to dance with logic, it is bumbling and awkward. It is experience of the inexpressible. Words fail.
• 

  AGuest

  Thanks for your reply.

  You are quite welcome, dear losthobbit, and again, peace to you!

  It's pretty amazing that your Lord talks to you directly.

  I thought so, too... but I am not unique. He speaks to everyone. Not everyone listens, though... mainly because they don't know his voice. Or they prefer the voice of strangers. Either way, it's on the person...

  I was a Christian for thirty years, and God didn't talk to me once.

  Since you have been... ummmm... forthright with me in your response, I must ask the same of you and that you not take offense at how I now respond. Thank you! First, I doubt you were/are a christian... because I doubt that you have received an anointing with holy spirit... which is what MAKES one a "christ"ian (i.e., a "chosen/anointed" person). One does not choose to be a christian, dear one: one is chosen by Christ. Now, that you were a disciple of Christ I do not doubt (actually, more like a disciple of whoever's teachings you followed, be it Paul or whatever religion(s) you associated with). Second, God has only spoken to me six times. That's because He doesn't usually talk to folks directly... and each time it was actually just some confirmation of the One who DOES speak to me: His Son, the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH. When the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies speaks, it's usually through a prophet (well, that's how it used to be)... or His Son (which is how it is now). As a "christian," surely you know/knew that? I mean, it is in the Bible... which I am assuming was your "guide" during your "christianity".

  I guess he chooses who to talk to,

  Well, of course He does. I do. Don't you?

  and for some reason decided that he doesn't like me as much as you.

  Ahhh, yes, let's go there: the old "God must like YOU more than He likes ME since He talks to YOU" excuse. No, He doesn't like me any more than He likes you. Through Christ He speaks to you, too. You just aren't listening. Why? Most probably because you believe what you've been told... by men who DON'T know (of course): that He doesn't speak at all, nor does Christ, that either neither exist or at least one of them is dead, and that if they DID speak you would hear it with your physical ears because, of course, they're physical beings just like you (the pictures even show this, don't they?). Right? Please dear one, don't take issue with ME because YOU have bought into the false hype. Note, some of these same men will tell you that demons can and do speak. Yet, how is THAT, exactly? Are they more powerful/able/capable than the Most Holy One of Israel, truly?

  Of course you can understand how I am skeptical that God talks to you, if you have no proof.

  I do understand your skepticism; I have experienced it myself; however, again, God does not speak to me (at least, not as you assume) and... you assume I have no proof... based on what your criteria for "proof" is. You want physical proof - I cannot say that that cannot be provided, as the gifts of holy spirit have and do provide proof for unbelievers. Such proof, however, is limited to those unbelievers who WOULD put faith in Christ upon manifestation of it. It is for the purpose of building UP the Body of Christ, the true Temple of God... not appeasing the skepticism and satiating the "sensual pleasures" of those who can do nothing more than walk by sight. So, it is YOUR choice: YOU need to decide if you TRULY want to know God and Christ, NOT so's you can run around and tell people, "Hey, look! They DO exist!"... but so that you can take part in building up the Body of Christ, as well. Because that is the ONLY reason the gifts of the holy spirit become manifest. They're not play things.

  You can easily prove that God talks to you, by asking him what my bank card pin code is, and then you can type it on this forum...

  I did ask, dear one (of course, ... as to how I should respond to you on this matter, and the answer of my Lord was this: first, no matter what number he gives you will deny it before you would acknowledge its accuracy publicly. Second, your money, bank, and pin code all belong to this world... and are things of this world... and no basis with or about the kingdom of God. He then said that I am to say to you, that if you TRULY want to know whether God speaks... then all you need do is simply go through the Door, approach the Most Holy One of Israel Himself, and ask whatever it is you wish. And you will be answered. Either directly or through His Son.

  Now, you should feel free to do whatever you wish with that information. In the meantime, may the undeserved kindness and mercy of the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies, and the love and peace of His Son and Christ, the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH, be upon you... if you truly wish it.

  Your servant and a slave of Christ,

  SA
• 

  losthobbit

  jgnat, anthing that is unable to "dance with logic", has that problem because it is illogical... it doesn't make sense, or it isn't true. Anyone who thinks rationally cannot have faith.

  AGuest, ... if I understand correctly, I must listen for a voice that I don't know, without using my physical ears?

  I have chosen to stick to maths, science and logic; things that make sense to me. I continue to do as much good as I know how, not out of some desire to get into heaven or escape from hell, but out of love instead.

  If God existed, and had any intention of talking to me, he would have been smart enough to communicate with me in a way that I understand. He is supposed to be all powerfull, after all. So far he hasn't done that. I don't think I'm asking for much at all... if he doesn't have the time for me, then he shouldn't have created seven billion people.

  I dream of a time in the future when the world will be united by logical reasoning and love, rather than divided by our personal faiths.
• 

  nicolaou

  Faith is the toxin that poisons a rational mind and allows it to believe the unbelievable.
• 

  WontLeave

  Of course, if there is proof, then we don't need faith, right?

  The whole hypothesis of this thread is based on a popular false premise. The same point was made in The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. In that book/show/radio program, the Babel fish was obviously too complex to have evolved, thus proof of Creation. God was asked how anyone could have faith in him with solid evidence he existed, so God "disappeared in a puff of logic".

  The churches have people convinced God requires everyone to blindly believe in him or else they're going to Hell. Even if they live(d) in a time and place where learning of him to a degree where one could put any faith in him was highly unlikely or impossible, God would punish them for eternity for not believing in him. This isn't even close to what faith is.

  If believing in God was all it took, then demons would be saved, because they all believe in God. If definite knowledge of God revoked faith, then angels could have no faith. Get it out of your head that "faith in God" means blindly believing he exists. That is a lie, perpetrated by the religions of the world, which exist solely to confuse all of humanity.

  A knowledge of God and his past history of kept promises is a prerequisite to faith. The definition of "faith" in Heb 11 is about faith in God's promises and abilities. You have to know God before you can put faith in God. The faith is in the future God promises. The faith is in the resurrection (1Cor 15:12-18).

  For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.” However, how will they call on him in whom they have not put faith? How, in turn, will they put faith in him of whom they have not heard? - Rom 10:13-14

  Trusting in the Creator for salvation, through the ransom of his son, Jesus, guarantees a sure thing. Without that, we're judged by our deeds (John 5:28-29). Of course, if one were to know God and fail to acknowledge him as the only source of salvation, he would probably consider that a "vile thing" and that one would be screwed.
• 

  tec

  Anyone who thinks rationally cannot have faith.

  Can you explain why?

  Tammy
• 

  nicolaou

  Anyone who thinks rationally cannot have faith. "Can you explain why?"

  I'll offer an example by way of explanation.

  The rational mind cannot accept that 2+2=17, that notion breaks simple (and obvious) mathematical rules. Once the mind has been infected with faith it can accept such an irrational statement as truth. Only someone with faith could believe that Jesus really did feed thousands with a few items of food and then gathered up more in leftovers than he started with.

  The sum of the parts can never be greater than the whole, that is how we know that this account did not happen as recorded. (Perhaps everyone bought a little food and they all shared amongst themselves. A more believable version which would teach a nice lesson in sharing but is hardly miraculous).

  I make no apologies for likening faith to a poison or disease.