Does the Christian message fall apart without a literal interpretation of Genesis?

by nicolaou 175 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • ProdigalSon
    ProdigalSon

    @trevor

    Genesis, which means beginning.

    Interesting that you bring that up. Did the first word of Genesis, bereshith, really mean "In the beginning"?

    I posted this whole article on the "How was the NT compiled" thread, but here's the part related to this discussion:

    http://www.blavatsky.net/magazine/theosophy/ww/additional/christianity/InTheBeginning.html

    Origen, Clemens Alexandrinus, Chalcidius, Methodius, and Maimonides, on the authority of the Targum of Jerusalem, the orthodox and greatest authority of the Jews, held that the first two words in the book of Genesis -- B-RASIT , mean Wisdom, or the Principle. And that the idea of these words meaning "in the beginning" was never shared but by the profane, who were not allowed to penetrate any deeper into the esoteric sense of the sentence. Beausobre, and after him Godfrey Higgins, have demonstrated the fact. "All things," says the Kabala, "are derived from one great Principle, and this principle is the unknown and invisible God." From Him a substantial power immediately proceeds, which is the image of God, and the source of all subsequent emanations. This second principle sends forth, by the energy (or will and force) of emanation, other natures, which are more or less perfect, according to their different degrees of distance, in the scale of emanation, from the First Source of existence, and which constitute different worlds, or orders of being, all united to the eternal power from which they proceed. Matter is nothing more than the most remote effect of the emanative energy of the Deity. The material world receives its form from the immediate agency of powers far beneath the First Source of Being ... Beausobre makes St. Augustine the Manichean say thus: 'And if by Rasit we understand the active Principle of the creation, instead of its beginning, in such a case we will clearly perceive that Moses never meant to say that heaven and earth were the first works of God. He only said that God created heaven and earth through the Principle, who is His Son. It is not the time he points to, but to the immediate author of the creation.' Angels, according to Augustine, were created before the firmament, and according to the esoteric interpretation, the heaven and earth were created after that, evolving from the second Principle or the Logos -- the creative Deity. "The word principle," says Beausobre, "does not mean that the heaven and earth were created before anything else, for, to begin with, the angels were created before that; but that God did everything through His Wisdom, which is His Verbum, and which the Christian Bible named the Beginning," thus adopting the exoteric meaning of the word abandoned to the multitudes. The Kabala -- the Oriental as well as the Jewish -- shows that a number of emanations (the Jewish Sephiroth) issued from the First Principle, the chief of which was Wisdom. This Wisdom is the Logos of Philo, and Michael, the chief of the Gnostic Eons; it is the Ormazd of the Persians; Minerva, goddess of wisdom, of the Greeks, who emanated from the head of Jupiter; and the second Person of the Christian Trinity. The early Fathers of the Church had not much to exert their imagination; they found a ready-made doctrine that had existed in every theogony for thousands of years before the Christian era. Their trinity is but the trio of Sephiroth, the first three kabalistic lights of which Moses Nachmanides says, that "they have never been seen by any one; there is not any defect in them, nor any disunion." The first eternal number is the Father, or the Chaldean primeval, invisible, and incomprehensible chaos, out of which proceeded the Intelligible one. The Egyptian Phtah, or "the Principle of Light -- not the light itself, and the Principle of Life, though himself no life." The Wisdom by which the Father created the heavens is the Son, or the kabalistic androgynous Adam Kadmon. The Son is at once the male Ra, or Light of Wisdom, Prudence or Intelligence, Sephira, the female part of Himself; while from this dual being proceeds the third emanation, the Binah or Reason, the second Intelligence -- the Holy Ghost of the Christians. Strictly speaking, there is a T ETRAKTIS or quaternary, consisting of the Unintelligible First monad, and its triple emanation, which properly constitute our Trinity.

  • tec
    tec
    But believers in god label us all sinners…that is a rather self-assuming judgement they can't make.

    Maybe you're right. I gave my definition of sin on the last page as wrongdoing - moral or otherwise. You can decide for yourself if that applies to you or not.

    As for me, I'll restate:

    Nothing falls apart regarding a literal or symbolic interpretation of the Adam/Eve story... because I sin. Regardless of what Adam/Eve did or did not do... I personally DO sin. I have done wrong in the past, I do wrong now, and I know that I will do wrong in the future. This is not some self-abasement. It is simple truth. So Christ atoned for my sins... and He covers for me where I fall short.

    Peace to you,

    Tammy

  • wobble
    wobble

    Well, I think you are a very naughty girl Tammy, and if Granny (Grace) reads about your bad behaviour she will send you to the naughty step !

    Why don't you try to be more like us non-Christian, non-believers who do not sin?

  • misocup
    misocup

    tec = Judaism apparently does not blame Eve for Adam's sin, and the Genesis account is theirs to begin with. Or women, for the problems of the world, for that matter.

    It would seem that generally, there is evidence of extra blame, in all three religions. I doubt that you will find many religious leaders that will come out and say they blame Eve either entirely or mostly for the fall. Nevertheless, it's easy to see that Eve carries more blame than Adam according to Gen. 3:16-17 both in severity, and order of punishment. In addition, men are allowed to "rule" over women, who are placed as clear second, and Adam is punished for both listening to his wife and eating of the tree. Leviticus goes on and on about the unclean states of women, and how everything she touches while unclean will also become unclean etc.

    The fact that these verses appear in the Torah, is indication enough for me that extra blame does exist for Eve, in the forefront of Jewish religious leaders minds, and in the subconscious minds of the Jewish r&f (Yentl anyone?) as much as those of Christians.

    According to the god of the Torah, all women are being punished by God, more severely than men. If God blames and punishes Eve (women) more than Adam (men), does it not follow that Jewish believers would to? You only need to look for signs of how this belief has played out in the societies of all three religions.

    Adam is punished for the sins of listening to his wife and eating from the tree true enough, but humans being humans the blame is largley placed upon Eve and consequently women.

    Before the Torah was written (pre-history), did women have equal status in society? Do ape societies give us a glimpse into our animal beginnings and social structure.

  • misocup
    misocup

    Tammy

    ===Nothing falls apart regarding a literal or symbolic interpretation of the Adam/Eve story... because I sin. Regardless of what Adam/Eve did or did not do... I personally DO sin. I have done wrong in the past, I do wrong now, and I know that I will do wrong in the future. This is not some self-abasement. It is simple truth. So Christ atoned for my sins... and He covers for me where I fall short. ===

    Let's pretend that Adam and Eve never existed and that Genesis is fiction. It follows that it absolutely must be true that sin never enters into human society through Adam and Eve and therefore there is no need or reason for atonement.

    Still some people believe what they want.

  • trevor
    trevor

    misocup I have never understood how Christians can dismiss Genesis and still find a basis for the animal sacrifices and prophets that led to Christ, 'the lamb of god that takes away the sin of the world.'

    Either man was created in god's image and Adam sinned or Adam never existed. In which case we were not created in god's image and we have not fallen from grace. Therefore we cannot be sinners. Just humans doing the best we can.

  • Terry
    Terry

    Divine Justice vs Human Children: the Gruge Match

    In this corner, in the White Trunks: Jehovah Gawd, weighing in at 225lbs with a reach of infinity and a knockout record of 3 trillion wins for 0 lost.

    In the opposite corner, in the Black Trunks: Mankind, weighing in at 98lbs with a reach that exceeds its grasp and a record of 0.

    The bell rings....Eve is in the center ring circling the Tree of Life and ignoring Jehovah. Stalking...moving to the left and reversing to the right. Boom! A talking snake has come out of nowhere and scored a direct hit to the solar plexus with some sort of juicy fruit!

    She's down.....but wait! Adam (her tag team partner) approaches and

    reaches out to lift his partner up....no wait! He's reaching for that juicy fruit and......Bam! They are both down for the count!

    Referee Baby Jesus has approached the microphone and is offering to stand in for the downed human pair!

    There are boos from the crowd and hisses from the talking snake!

    Judges at ringside are conferring: God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost are all in agreement.

    Referee Baby Jesus steps in and takes a full-fanged attack in his heel and goes down!

    Ladies and Gentlemen we've never seen anything like this---but---hold on----HE'S RISING from the canvas and is now

    stomping the shit out of the talking snake and..............looks like it is over!

    Baby Jesus wins!!!

    They championship belt is being offered and Baby Jesus is beckoning to the humans to come join him in the celebration.

    What a night folks here at the arena!

  • JustHuman14
    JustHuman14

    Even as far as the time of Eve's creation, God had not created a single earthly creation of his as a perfect one, as Moses tells us in Genesis 1 31: And God looked upon everything that He had created, and behold, they were VERY FINE.

    Those who are familiar with the Greek language can easily discern that the expression "very fine" (καλ? λ?αν) is a far cry from the word "perfect" (τ?λειον). A perfect creation is one that has nothing lacking in it. Therefore, both Adam and Eve and the rest of material creation that is described in Genesis, were DEFICIENT.

    Does this mean that God didn't know how to do things properly? Of course not!The reason He didn't create them perfect from the beginning, was that Creation was still lacking something, even after the creation of mankind. There was yet another element that had to be attained, which required the collaboration of man. This detail is apparent, in the following tract:The image and the likeness.

    Genesis 1 26,27: "And the Lord said: Let's make man, according to our image and according to our likeness.....And God created man according to His image. According to the image of God He created him." Here -according to the teaching of the Fathers- God appears to have the intention of creating man "according to the image and to the likeness" of Himself. When He eventually created man, He made man in His image. And this is where the formula of perfection is hidden: Man, having being created "according to God's image" was "very fine". But, when man becomes "according to God's likeness", he would then be on a course towards PERFECTION.

    Given that God is what He is, BECAUSE HE WANTS TO and not because He is compelled to, man must likewise WANT TO, must attempt to, through use of his freedom as "the image of" and his intelligence, reach perfection; in other words, seek the course towards becoming "according to the likeness of God." This is a characteristic that man alone has, in all of creation.

    It was not possible for man to be created perfect straight away (=compulsorily). Satan had enticed man, that he would become "according to the likeness of God" through his independence and self-government, without the collaboration of the Holy Spirit. Because of this, man failed to attain the goal of perfection (=he sinned), thus, instead of becoming "according to the likeness of God", man now "resembled the decadent beasts". The goal of perfection is the goal of every Christian, as is evident in the following Gospel excerpts:

    Matthew 5: 48: "Be therefore perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect".
    Hebrews 6: 1: "..putting aside the initial teaching of Christ, let us move on, towards perfection.."
    Ephesians 4: 13: "Until such time as we shall all have reached the unity of the faith and the awareness of the Son of God, (thus becoming) a perfect man, to that measure of age of the fullness of Christ."

    We must clarify something here: When the Holy Bible speaks of perfection, it is nowhere referring to the perfection of the physical body, as perceived by "Witnesses". The Bible speaks of a similarity to God, which has absolutely nothing to do with a corporal inference. The fact that the bodies of the perfected acquire incorruptibility and immortality is only the natural result of perfection, and not perfection itself.
    So, how can we become similar to God, if we haven't seen Him? Once again, the answer lies in the phrase: "according to His image and according to His likeness". It doesn't say: "image and likeness".What does the word "according to" (Greek=κατ?) imply? It implies "the image of the image" of God, and not God's image directly. Who then is the direct image of God? It is Jesus Christ of course:

    Collosians 1: 15: "...who is the image of the invisible God..."Adam, therefore, had been created "according to the image of God", or, "as an image of Christ.The fact that Jesus Christ had not yet been incarnated as a man, is not an issue. God, Who is beyond time, and as the Creator of Time, knows the future full well. All of this, is in compliance with Ephesians 4: 13 that we mentioned previously. We must therefore strive towards the example that was set by the Lord Jesus Christ, because this is what will lead us to becoming "according to the likeness" of God - in other words, our path towards perfection.Could it be that perfection is not feasible, since we are referring to the infinitely perfect God? This is partially true. To reach Him is definitely impossible. But we can draw nearer to Him, from now through to all eternity, becoming more and more according to His likeness, as we can see from the following verse:

    Corinthians II, 3: 18: "but we all, with face uncovered, as reflections of the glory of God, are transformed into the same image, from glory to glory."
    Perfection therefore is a relative idea, and each one of us is on a course towards the likeness, either of God, or of his enemy the Devil. The free will of each one of us is the determining factor for the stage of progress one has attained. Perfection is not a destination point. It is a non-stop course!

    A verse that indicates this relative meaning of the word "perfection" appears very early in the Holy Bible:Genesis 6: 9: "Noah was a righteous man, perfect amongst those of his time. Noah had walked with God..." Noah is regarded perfect, as compared to his contemporaries, because "he walked with God." He was on the course towards perfection! He had exhausted all the means available to him at the time, on his road towards perfection.

    The reality is, that the creation of mankind was perfected, much, much later. It was only upon the birth of our Lord Jesus Christ, that man (at last) appeared in a state of perfection. Jesus Christ was the only man Who was actually perfect. In His person, mankind had found the fulfillment of God's purpose for it: "let's create man....according to our likeness."

    Jesus had opened the way towards perfection and towards all those who were on the path for becoming "according to the likeness". James 3: 9: ".....men, who have been made according to the likeness of God...."

  • trevor
    trevor

    JustHuman14 You have written some wonderful prose. It's on par with 'The Lion the lion the Witch & the Wardrobe.' Alas it is all smoke and mirrors with no substance.

    I could take the same ingredients and produce an entirely different dish. What you entertain yourself believing makes sense to you but it is totally subjective without a shred of evidence to back the theory.

    This is why Christians argue among themselves about whether Adam & Eve really existed. Did god use evolution instead of creation? All you have as a reference point is the bible and you can’t agree which bits of that, if any, are inerrant.

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    Nic

    Posters like Tammy fail to understand the difference between assertions and contentions, as a result they often come across as rude. I'm sure Tammy isn't being intentionally discourteous when she labels us all as sinners in need of redemption.

    Just as I'm sure you don't mean to sound self-righteous, when you deny the obvious. This debate isn't about a literal interpretation of Genesis. It's about Paul's statements (spiritualization) regarding the fall of man, like in Romans 5 and 1st Cor 15.

    1Co 15:20

    But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

    Rom 5:12

    Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned-- 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. 18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. 19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. 20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    I believe Paul see's death (something we all must face) as proof of all being sinners.

    You're right Nic, if you're not a sinner, you don't need a Savior, you'll live forever.

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