Do Jehovah's Witnesses represent a less legitimate form of religious expression?

by slimboyfat 37 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  slimboyfat

  LWT I would say early Christianity is a better match for Lifton's criteria than Jehovah's Witnesses, therefore it would be ironic for other Christian groups to use that as a basis for labelling Jehovah's Witnesses as outside the mainstream. Just to go through some of them:

  The most basic feature is the control of human communication within an environment

  2 Cor 6: 14 Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness?

  Mark 10: 29 Jesus said: “Truly I say to YOU men, No one has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for my sake and for the sake of the good news 30 who will not get a hundredfold now in this period of time, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and fields, with persecutions, and in the coming system of things everlasting life.

  If the control is extremely intense, it becomes internalized control -- an attempt to manage an individual's inner communication

  Romans 12: 2 And quit being fashioned after this system of things, but be transformed by making YOUR mind over, that YOU may prove to yourselves the good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

  Control over all a person sees, hears, reads, writes (information control) creates conflicts in respect to individual autonomy

  1 Cor 1: 19 For it is written: “I will make the wisdom of the wise [men] perish, and the intelligence of the intellectual [men] I will shove aside.” 20 Where is the wise man? Where the scribe? Where the debater of this system of things? Did not God make the wisdom of the world foolish?

  Gal 1: 8 However, even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to YOU as good news something beyond what we declared to YOU as good news, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said above, I also now say again, Whoever it is that is declaring to YOU as good news something beyond what YOU accepted, let him be accursed.

  Groups express this in several ways: Group process, isolation from other people, psychological pressure, geographical distance or unavailable transportation, sometimes physical pressure

  1 Cor 15: 33 Do not be misled. Bad associations spoil useful habits. 34 Wake up to soberness in a righteous way and do not practice sin, for some are without knowledge of God. I am speaking to move YOU to shame.

  Luke 5: 8 Seeing this, Simon Peter fell down at the knees of Jesus, saying: “Depart from me, because I am a sinful man, Lord.” 9 For at the catch of fish which they took up astonishment overwhelmed him and all those with him, 10 and likewise both James and John, Zeb´e·dee’s sons, who were sharers with Simon. But Jesus said to Simon: “Stop being afraid. From now on you will be catching men alive.” 11 So they brought the boats back to land, and abandoned everything and followed him.

  Matt 12: 30 He that is not on my side is against me, and he that does not gather with me scatters.

  Often a sequence of events, such as seminars, lectures, group encounters, which become increasingly intense and increasingly isolated, making it extremely difficult--both physically and psychologically--for one to leave

  Heb 10: 23 Let us hold fast the public declaration of our hope without wavering, for he is faithful that promised. 24 And let us consider one another to incite to love and fine works, 25 not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as YOU behold the day drawing near.

  2 Cor 6: 16 And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? For we are a temple of a living God; just as God said: “I shall reside among them and walk among [them], and I shall be their God, and they will be my people.” 17 “‘Therefore get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’”; “‘and I will take YOU in.’”

  Sets up a sense of antagonism with the outside world; it's "us against them"

  1 John 4: 4 Y OU originate with God, little children, and YOU have conquered those [persons], because he that is in union with YOU is greater than he that is in union with the world. 5 They originate with the world; that is why they speak [what proceeds] from the world and the world listens to them. 6 We originate with God. He that gains the knowledge of God listens to us;he that does not originate with God does not listen to us . This is how we take note of the inspired expression of truth and the inspired expression of error.. This is how we take note of the inspired expression of truth and the inspired expression of error.

  Closely connected to the process of individual change (of personality)

  Eph 4: 20 But YOU did not learn the Christ to be so, 21 provided, indeed, that YOU heard him and were taught by means of him, just as truth is in Jesus, 22 that YOU should put away the old personality which conforms to YOUR former course of conduct and which is being corrupted according to his deceptive desires; 23 but that YOU should be made new in the force actuating YOUR mind, 24 and should put on the new personality which was created according to God’s will in true righteousness and loyalty.
• 

  leavingwt

  early Christianity

  Red Herring
• 

  slimboyfat

  Why? It is relevant that the criteria used to stigmatise Jehovah's Witnesses and similar groups would have similarly categorised early Christianity... or most religious groups throughout most of history for that matter.

  Lifton's criteria, to the extent that the majority of mainstream churches now do not fit the descriptions, more than anything else, highlights the extent to which the modern secularization process has neutered mainstream religion.
• 

  leavingwt

  Why? It is relevant that the criteria used to stigmatise Jehovah's Witnesses and similar groups would have similarly categorised early Christianity... or most religious groups throughout most of history for that matter.

  Lifton's criteria, to the extent that the majority of mainstream churches now do not fit the descriptions, more than anything else, highlights the extent to which the modern secularization process has neutered mainstream religion.

  Religion was going strong, long before Christianity. The title of this thread was about "religious expression".

  Lifton's research reveals that JWs (and various other groups) simply do what they are told. They are like robots. They'll believe anything and do anything asked of them, regardless of the facts and the data that is available. Obedience is regarded more highly than membership in a reality-based community. (Not all JWs are robots, but my 23 years with the group revealed that at least 85% were. Most of the other 15% still feel it's the only true religion.)

  Regarding Christianity, specifically, why do you suggest that early Christianity is superior to modern Christianity? IMHO, we're now going into litmus tests for "correct" Christianity. I'm sure you would agree that there is no such things as "one true religion" and that all denominations are based upon a "unique interpretation" of Scripture. Why would the brand new church be superior to the church led by Christ for thousands of years?

  What Lifton (and later Hassan) have shown us is that High-Control Groups have removed choice from the members. There is no freedom. People are not free to choose what is right for themselves, even when this is done with a personal examination of Scripture. They must blindly follow the dogma of leadership or they will be cut off from their dearest friends and family -- even if they personally find the doctrines despicable, at some point.

  Franz's second book did a nice job of describing how JWs could not be more different than the first century Christians. There was no central authority that regulated each person's entire way of life. The title, "Christian Freedom", suggests an idea that is entiretly foreign to WT dogma.

  Personally, I'm very thankful for what you've referred to as the "modern secularization process that has neutered mainstream religion". In your opening post, you've expressed your opinion that all religion is rubbish. If not for the this neutering, both of us would probably be forced to live by this "rubbish".

  People everywhere who love freedom have an obligation to denounce any theology or culture that robs people of their liberty, IMHO.

  MOST religions are not high-control groups and within these religions, Lifton's criteria will not be found.
• 

  superpunk

  I think everyone's right in this case.

  It is just differing degrees of illegitimacy.

  Maybe a comparison everyone will be more comfortable with is JWism with Islam. Mainstream Christianity underwent a reformation because secularism forced them to. If they wanted to remain "legitimate", they had to back off a bit. Islam has never undergone such a reformation, in parts of the world where it is in the forefront, and therefore it seems barbaric to us in it's implementation. I feel the same with the JWs - but I also feel that they are slowly being forced by the growing secular outlook of their membership to undergo some reform - and I think it will continue until they are nothing more than another mainstream religion.

  Almost noone chooses to join a religion based on accurate information. They join based on how it makes them feel, and then later they may come to more understanding, or they may not. It's just not important for many believers.

  The best argument against the legitimacy of the JWs as a religion is the overwhelming organizational control over the lives of membership - combined with stiff penalties for failure to comply. And that is what sets them apart from "legitimate" religions - as we seem to define "legitimate" as "most secularly influenced". However, just a few decades ago, they were not that out of place, as members of many communities who dared to not show in church on a regular basis faced institutionalized ostracism in the community for not being part of the Jesus crowd.
• 

  dozy

  It is a good point that SBF is making. It is very difficult for us , as ex or doubting JWs , to make an objective judgement on our former religion. I can't help but feel that all religions essentially are "man dominated" - it is simply that as the membership grows it is harder for the hierachy to enforce what they perceive as "the truth" on the membership (eg in the middle ages the Catholics burnt people at the stake but now with over a billion adherents there is constant flouting of the Pope's views on different matters). I know one African JW missionary who says that basically they don't bother disfellowshipping people other than the most blatant cases because "almost everyone would be disfellowshipped." The more members there are and the more fragmented a religion becomes , the most difficult it is to exhibit institutional control.

  As JWs , we were taught that there was only one true religion & this mentality encourages us not only to look for a more idealised form of religion (Franz wrote about it but to my understanding he never found another group and simply "worshipped" with a group of friends). Trying to be objective , I would suggest that in its purest form Jehovah's witnesses could be regarded (and indeed are , in most lands) as just another form of Christian religious expression , albeit somewhat unorthodox in certain doctrines. The legitimacy or otherwise is difficult to establish because it assumes a central standard and acceptable degree of deviation.
• 

  Curtains

  you are probably right dozy. I don't think I can be objective and I don't see the need to be so.

  I also think Pauls writings (that slim references) can be interpreted as something benign like identity formation all the way to extreme social control - to me Jehovahs witnesses interpret Paul in the worst possible way.
• 

  thetrueone

  In answer to the originally posed question, I would say yes most definitely.

  The reason being is that the orchestrator's of the WTS. have always been endeavored into commercialism

  and self marketing of literature. As its known words printed into books may not necessarily contain legitimately accurate

  information, rather diluted of these attributes in favor of attracting the readers attention.

  Retrospectively looking back at C Russell last will and testament, he himself sincerely thought what he had produced

  in his writings were really of no great importance or merit, in that he wanted no further books published by the WTS.

  after his death. His continuation of his own developed religious ideologies was to come to a halt.

  Well it didn't a lawyer threw Russell's will in the trash and grabbed a hold of the WTS with all of its pertaining

  wealth and power and took it all for himself.

  Interesting is it not when you think that the WTS. publishing corporation was started by a clothing salesman with a basic education

  only to be handed over to trained professional lawyer who neither were trained in bible theology. They intensionally instilled the power of god

  into their hands and at the same time developed a prosperous publishing business, now thats what I call taking full advantage of freedom

  and liberty America style.