And JW stuff made you want to scream: Pope's new book

by simon17 22 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips

    I'm definitely not a Catholic apologist because I'm no fan of Benedict but in the things you cited, I have no issue with those. The Pope recently said some things you and I BOTH would agree with though and not sure you heard about it. He said that universal healthare is a right, not a privilege.
    If the Pope actually spread that through the Bishops to all Catholics (Including our friend, Burn the Ships), the Christians on the Left would finally be able to compete with the Party of NO!

    Bluesapphire never fails to bring out my name on threads. She is "muy equivocada."

    In the United States, BS, we have this little document called the Constitution.

    Obamacare is unconstitutional, which is why it is being challenged in the courts.

    http://www.newsmax.com/Headline/Andrew-Napolitano-barack-obama/2010/03/26/id/354008

    Catholics cannot support a government that does not give consideration to its own laws.

    The Catholic teaching is of subsidiarity, which also happens to mesh perfectly with the US Constitution.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsidiarity

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsidiarity_(Catholicism)

    Subsidiarity is an organizing principle that matters ought to be handled by the smallest, lowest or least centralized competent authority. As such, the principle of subsidiarity conflicts with centralization and bureaucracy in political systems.

    We have a responsibility to the poor, the marginalized, the sick, the hungry, but public healthcare is just another name for socialized medicine.

    The Pope said nothing about socialized medicine.

    Christians, and certainly Catholics, should oppose it.

    "...Socialism...cannot be reconciled with the teachings of the Catholic Church because its concept of society itself is utterly foreign to Christian truth."
    QUADRAGESIMO ANNO, 117, Encyclical of Pope Pius XI
    Reconstruction of the Social Order, May 15, 1931

    "...no Catholic [can] subscribe even to moderate Socialism."
    MATER ET MAGISTRA, 34, Pope John XXIII
    On Christianity and Social Progress, May 15, 1961

    "Socialists...debase the natural union of man and woman...the [family] bond they...deliver up to lust. Lured...by the greed of present goods...they assail the right of property. While they seem desirous of caring for the needs and satisfying the desires of all men, they strive to seize and hold in common whatever has been acquired either by title, by labor, or by thrift."
    QUOD APOSTOLICI MUNERIS, 1, Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII
    On Socialism, December 28, 1878

    From the US Constitution, the X amendment:

    The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

    And lastly, from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

    http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c2a1.htm

    I could bold relevant parts, but IT IS ALL RELEVANT. I will therefore bold ALL OF IT SO IT CAN BURN INTO YOUR BRAIN, and so you will stop this crazy nonsense of yours, BLUESAPPHIRE.

    Socialization also presents dangers. Excessive intervention by the state can threaten personal freedom and initiative. The teaching of the Church has elaborated the principle of subsidiarity, according to which “a community of a higher order should not interfere in the internal life of a community of the lower order, depriving the latter of its functions, but rather should support it in case of need and help to co-ordinate its activity with the activities of the rest of society, always with a view to the common good.”

    God has not willed to reserve to himself all exercise of power. He entrusts to every creature the functions it is capable of performing, according to the capacities of its own nature. This mode of governance ought to be followed in social life. The way God acts in governing the world, which bears witness to such great regard for human freedom, should inspire the wisdom of those who govern human communities. They should behave as ministers of divine providence.

    The principle of subsidiarity is opposed to all forms of collectivism. It sets limits for state intervention. It aims at harmonizing the relationships between individuals and societies. It tends toward the establishment of true international order.

    Under Obamacare, the injustice of the currently uninsured will be replaced (to some extent although not all will be insured in the end) with the injustice of rationing, of a reduced standard of care, of less specialization and development. As in all socialized systems, the truly innovative and cutting edge treatments will be reserved for the wealthy, while mediocrity will prevail throughout under the inability of socialization to provide motivation. The one end that will be served is centralized planning, which is what always feeds socialism and is the true motive for it.

    And by the way, it is not the party of NO. It is the party of HELL NO.

  • Justitia Themis
    Justitia Themis

    But a pope cannot invent dogma. He can only declare that a doctrine is something thatthe Church at large does not question. Therefore the community of Catholics from that point forward does not allow new converts in that do not agree with what the Church has always taught and believed regarding this dogma, neither is the dogma any further allowed to be questioned without the possibility of being considered a heretic.

    ROTFLMAO

    The Pope doesn't invent dogma..he declares a doctrine (which then makes it dogma) and no one can question it without possibly (probably) being declared a heretic (a person who goes against declared dogma). ???????

  • Justitia Themis
    Justitia Themis

    http://www.theworkofgod.org/dogmas.htm#Dogma-IX-Baptism

    BTW...this IS official Catholic dogma..."

    1. Membership of the Catholic Church is necessary for all men for salvation
    2. The Church has received from Christ the power of remitting sins committed after Baptism.
  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips
    BTW...this IS official Catholic dogma..."

    JT, you are the Islamic apologist par excellence on this board. Sometimes it has seemed that you will defend any and all accusations against the Muslims.

    To see you post this out of context, third party stuff without any qualification whatsoever is, well, disappointing. Perhaps you are not the nuanced, impartial judge you think you might be. In other words, a Justitia Themis without the blind fold, and with a faulty scale.

    Or perhaps (and more likely) a Justitia not in possession of all the relevant information.

    Please allow me to "put you some knowledge."

    Firstly, dogma and doctrine are not exactly the same thing.

    Secondly, let me point you to the official English language compendium of Catholic doctrine.

    http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm

    "Outside the Church there is no salvation"

    How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

    Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

    This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

    Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

    Also, this page might be helpful.

    http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0403sbs.asp

    The Catholic dogma is indeed that outside the Church there is no salvation, but your interpretation of what this dogma means is flawed.

    BTS

  • GLTirebiter
    GLTirebiter
    Membership of the Catholic Church is necessary for all men for salvation

    That is a misleading generalization. Membership in the church is necessary for those who know of the church and its role in salvation. Salvation is denied to those who know the Church's role and willfully reject it; those who do no not know but nevertheless live upright lives can attain salvation. The official teaching of the Church (edit: I see BTS quoted this too), is in articles 846 and 847 of the Catechism (source: Vatican web site, emphasis: mine).

    846 ... He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

    847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

    Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

  • Justitia Themis
    Justitia Themis

    Or perhaps (and more likely) a Justitia not in possession of all the relevant information.

    OR...a Justitia whose ex mother-in-law was one of the most devout Catholics ever to exist. Wenatchee, Washington...conservative, Catholic. OR..a Justitia whose ex mother-in-law explained to her that when "the" Church says there is no salvation outside "the" Church it means just that! Not Catholic, not saved. OR... a Justitia who examined converting when married to my Catholic first husband and studied Catholicism. OR...a Justitia whose ex mother-in-law explained to her that her daughter, who was not baptized a Catholic as an infant, would go to Hell if she died before she was baptized. OR...a Justitia who has no time for people who put themselves Jesus' position and feel they have the right to forgive sins. Fortunately, there are those Catholics who are moderate and reject aspects of their Church's beliefs.

    Not sure what the Islam think was all about...but totally expected it. :) Enjoy your mental gymnastics BTS, I hope it gives you a measure of peace. However, I didn't buy it when I was a JW...didn't buy it from the Catholics.

  • Justitia Themis
    Justitia Themis

    Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

    Since you broached the subject:

    !!!!ALMOST like Sufi Islam EXCEPT Sufi's replace the "may achieve eternal salvation" with "WILL achieve eternal salvation."

  • Justitia Themis
    Justitia Themis

    This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

    Ah...but the "Devil" is in the details...sorry...couldn't resist. The key wiggle phrase is..."through no fault of their own." If you think the Catholic Church totally sucks, BUT you are a good, decent person who engages in charitable works..BUT you never get baptized as a Catholic...well... tooooo baaaddd for YOU!.

    Yes, God is most concerned about boundaries. He isn't concerned with who people are...he is a detailed oriented miser. IF you are a JW, you believe he manifests these personality traits by viewing JW's as exceptional. IF you are a Catholic, you believe he manifests these personality traits by viewing Catholics as exceptional.

    I don't believe he is interested in any specific group, but looks at people...i.e. screw the Majesterium. Party in Hell at JT's!!!!

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips
    Ah...but the "Devil" is in the details...sorry...couldn't resist. The key wiggle phrase is..."through no fault of their own." If you think the Catholic Church totally sucks, BUT you are a good, decent person who engages in charitable works..BUT you never get baptized as a Catholic...well... tooooo baaaddd for YOU!.

    No, that is not what it means according to Roman Catholic teaching. A person can exist in a state of invincible ignorance. Some are ignorant, and never know. Others are incapable of reasoning, due to various factors. All a person can do is obey their conscience to the best of their ability.

    Paragraph 1793, and the context explain this a bit:

    http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a6.htm

    The concept is explained here also:

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07648a.htm

    "the" Church says there is no salvation outside "the" Church it means just that!

    The Church is the body of Christ. It is universal, or catholic (small "c").

    It consists of all believers, and not just the Roman church, which is only one particular church. It does not only exist on earth, but in heaven as well. Some may not become part of that body in this life, but in the next.

    See paragraph 1260 below (which I will quote here):

    "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery." Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved.

    http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a1.htm

    BTS

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    I am a catholic, though I am not a roman catholic since I do not recognise the authority of the Pope.

    However, Marcus is quite right that it is very "in" to bash Catholics, heck JW's do it all that time, they even say how it is the very "laid back" attitude of the RCC that allows for people to "come and go" as they please that shows that it is corrupt, LOL !

    The Pope is a relic of a time long past, I think he shoudl be replaced with a council of Bishops ( get rid of the Cardinals) but I digress.

    The Pope is one of those positions that is a "lose-lose" situation because anything he says will be taken out of context ( typically) and used to point out how silly and out of date he and the Vatican are.

    Of course for the over 1 billion RC those views of the Pope are irrelevant and since he "speaks to them" I guess that is all that matters ( to a degree).

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit