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The Apostle John thought the end was near...
by pirata 33 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Joey Jo-Jo
Bart Ehrman in his books Misquoting Jesus and Jesus interrupted mentions this, John was not the only apostle that thought that the end was near.
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Hoffnung
Did anyone research if Revelation could have been partially fullfilled in the 132 CE revulotion led by Simon Kochbar and which led to the final destruction of Jerusalem and death of some 580.000 jews and the christians being thrown out of synagoges all over the place?
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Leolaia
That idea doesn't seem too promising since the book was mostly concerned with the martyrdom of Christians and the destruction of Rome, not Jerusalem.
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PSacramento
A few things:
The writer of 1John was probably the Apostle John, yes, but most don't think that John of Patmos was the apostle John ( @John and 3John are typically viewed as being written by the Elder John).
John was a very popular name in those days it seems.
Not sure of We can, looking back from the 21st century with all our preconceived notions, know what John meant when he said that it was the "last hour".
Paul had to write a letter to the Thessolonians clearing up the notion that the end of days has already come, so it seems that many people may have had their own interpretation of "the end".
Even Peter had to comment on it in his letter, answeringt he question as to why God had not yet ended things and Jesus had not yet returned.
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Hoffnung
Hi Leolaia, thanks for your comments. Can you recommend me a thread or a book which explains this further? It seems to be quite difficult to find a good explanation of revelation at all. (Not to mention the climax book from 1988 was a joke at best...and they made us study it 4 times..."sigh")
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Lore
Not sure of We can, looking back from the 21st century with all our preconceived notions, know what John meant when he said that it was the "last hour".
Which makes you wonder why he bothered writing it in the first place.
If we remove all the words in that scripture that we can't be sure of we are left with:
1 John 2 18 Dear _______, ____ is the ____ ____; and as ___ have heard that the __________ is ______, even ___ ____ ___________ ____ ____. This is how we know __ is the ____ ____.
Hardly worth saying in the first place if every other word can mean literally ANYTHING.
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Lore
I figured I'd explain all the blanks in my last post:
Dear children, this is the lasthour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even nowmanyantichristshavecome. This is how we know it is the lasthour.
Religious people will take apart each of those words and can attribute absolutely ANY meaning to it.
Children: Is he talking about literal children? Does he mean everyone who is reading this? All his followers? Only 'annointed ones'? Only 'other sheep? Only those people currently present at the time of that writing? Only those alive during the time it applies too?
This: Is he talking about THAT time that he was saying those words? Or is he pretending he's in the future and talking about the 21st century? Or the past?
Last: Meaning there won't be anymore? Last of what? Last one like it?
Hour: 60 minutes? 3600 seconds? A figurative hour? 1000 years is a day so a 24th of that is 41.5 years? Starting when? When he said it? When the prophecy kicks in?
You: Presumably 'you' is the 'children'. But that is open to change at the believers whim. So no clue what he means by 'you'. Am I included?
Antichrist: Whatever the heck that is.
Coming: Meaning he will get here eventually? He's not here yet but will be? Coming where? Earth? Heaven? Jerusalem? That particular spot?
Now: Still not sure if he's talking about the first century when he's saying all this crap or if he's projecting to the future.
Many: How many? More than one? Or just one REALLY big one? Tens, Hundreds? Thousands? Millions? Billions?
Antichrists: Whatever the heck they are.
Have: When?
Come: Where?
It: What?
Last: Meaning?
Hour: How long?
Am I nitpicking? YES, because I have too. Because if you read the words as they are said and use the obvious meanings for those words it means JESUS WAS WRONG. Christians can't have that, so they redefine pretty much every word he said to mean something else.
And if you can do that, it makes the whole stupid book useless.
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sabastious
Psh, Revelation was written for US not whoever John thought his audience was at the time he wrote it.
-Sab
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PSacramento
Well, if you wanna look at like, great, you certainly can.
Of course I don't recall Jesus saying WHEN he would return, just that thinsg would get worse before they got bette.
When John wrote that, he must have meant THAT the HOUR WAS AT HAND just liek WE know take those words to mean just that, and he mean it literally because, for the rest of the letter he doesn't stop talking about it.
Oh, wait... he does stop and never brings it up again...weird how such a VITAL AND CRUCIAL thing is not really dwelled on and his just goes on to talk about other things.
Just because we want something to mean something, doesn't mean it does.
How does John end his letter? is it with another warning? a reminder of the LAST HOUR AT AND?
Nope:
1 Every one who believes that Jesus is the Christ is a child of God, and every one who loves the parent loves the child. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that overcomes the world, our faith. 5 Who is it that overcomes the world but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
6 This is he who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ, not with the water only but with the water and the blood. 7 And the Spirit is the witness, because the Spirit is the truth. 8 There are three witnesses, the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree. 9 If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for this is the testimony of God that he has borne witness to his Son. 10 He who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. He who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne to his Son. 11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who has not the Son of God has not life.
13 I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life. 14 And this is the confidence which we have in him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us. 15 And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have obtained the requests made of him. 16 If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.
18 We know that any one born of God does not sin, but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.
19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world is in the power of the evil one.
20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, to know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life. 21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols.