The Watchtower and the Occult (page 4)

bohm

brotherdan:

I think that if one evaluate the WT according to what they themselves think is "occult" then your right, they have been practicing occult things.

But, well, they consider birthdays occult :-). It more or less seem to me they have been practising the quackery that was "hot" in the days and which might seem "sciency" on the average imbicil, ie. rutherford and his crack team of WT writers.

The places they are obviously wrong (607bc, blood, etc.) and most importantly, the sh*t they are doing to your family, thats why they are wrong. Not some silly thing they bought into 70 years ago.

brotherdan

Then why hide it? Why not say, "We thought it was science...but we were wrong."

bohm

brotherdan: "Then why hide it? Why not say, "We thought it was science...but we were wrong.""

lack of courage and interlectual honesty which they hide under "dont stumble your fellow brothers/dont bring reproach upon jahs organization".

brotherdan

Exactly, that is the only reason I brought up this thread. I was just showing that there is even more to their history than even exJWs explore. It isn't sensational to bring it up. I wasn't claiming secret satanic rituals in the basement halls of bethel. I was just saying that some things they believed and practiced were rooted in occultism and paganism.

TD

I listened to the entire audio file.

As I was listening, I got to wondering if perhaps as JW for 30+ years, Tom McGovern does not understand the occult well enough to understand the differences between the occult and Biblical miracles.

For example, in the Bible, Aaron throws down his staff before Pharoah and it turns into a serpent. (Ex 7:10) Pharoah's sorcerers duplicate the phenomenon. (Ex 7:11) This doesn't make Aaron a practicer of the occult arts. The difference here is the source of the power. Aaron's miracle was facilitated by God. Pharoah's sorcerers are backed by something else.

This distinction is easy to understand, right?

In the Bible, resurrections are performed by the prophets, and even by Christ himself. This did not make them necromancers. A necromancer is a sorcerer who conjures the spirit of a dead person --and not by the power of God.

Further, those who were resurrected in the Bible ostensibly communicated with others afterwards. That communication is not necromancy either. The same can be said about the appearance of Moses and Elijah at the transfiguration (Mt. 17:3) Like turning a staff into a serpent, this is one of those things in the Bible that is apparently okay as long as God does it. Again, the distinction is the source of the miracle.

With the foregoing in mind, Tom McGovern states in the interview:

18:50 “They believe that after Pastor Russell died – Charles Taze Russell who founded the Watchtower -uh he was still from the dead, from heaven administering the harvest work.”

19:55 “The only problem was that a similar teaching still does exist in the organization today. There’s a book called Revelation It’s Grand Climax At Hand and it suggests that resurrected ones of what they call the 24 Elders group which is the 144,000 may be involved in the communicating of the divine truth today.”

He equated this to necromancy, but is that fair?

It's true that there was a period of about three years or so where the Bible Students taught that Russell, as the 'Faithful steward' was directing the work as a resurrected spirit creature. It's also true that Jehovah's Witnesses believe that those of the "Anointed" are resurrected to spirit life at the moment of death and that as heavenly spirit creatures higher than the angels, they participate in the outworking of God's purpose in some unspecified way.

In both instances, we're dealing with the doctrine of resurrection, not the necromantic practice of conjuring up spirits. Strict Protestant fundamentalists can argue with Jehovah's Witnesses about doctrine all they want, but at the very worst, all Jehovah's Witnesses have done is take a wrong turn (Or two) with Christian teaching. They have not at any point advocated/taught/practiced necromancy.

brotherdan

A necromancer is a sorcerer who conjures the spirit of a dead person --and not by the power of God.

And the point is "not by the power of God."

If it is NOT by the power of God, then who is it by? Everything NOT of the power of God is of the Devil (according to Christian and JW theology).

However, you, TD, make a VERY valid point in saying:

In both instances, we're dealing with the doctrine of resurrection, not the necromantic practice of conjuring up spirits. Strict Protestant fundamentalists can argue with Jehovah's Witnesses about doctrine all they want, but at the very worst, all Jehovah's Witnesses have done is take a wrong turn (Or two) with Christian teaching. They have not at any point advocated/taught/practiced necromancy.

However, it seems to me that this is just a technicality. For example, the JWs say that if you communicate with "ghosts" you are not communicating with a dead relative, but with a demon. So if they say they are communicating with a ressurected spirit creature...then who MAY they be communicating with?

However...I do see the faulty reasoning that I have shown here.

Nathan Natas

Leavingwt said, "Not once in my 23 years (and six at Bethel) did I ever see or hear of anything even remotely occultic."

Isn't it amazing what you don't find when you're not looking for it?

So aren't aware of phenology? Abrams and Radionics devices? The grape cure? Angels and Women? The WATCHTOWER SOCIETY horoscope? Robison's wonderful series COLOR AND CHARACTER that ran in the Golden Age?

No, if you never thought to look for traces of occultism in the WTB&TS, you wouldn't find them.

TD

However, it seems to me that this is just a technicality. For example, the JWs say that if you communicate with "ghosts" you are not communicating with a dead relative, but with a demon. So if they say they are communicating with a ressurected spirit creature...then who MAY they be communicating with?

I guess it would ultimately depend on whether real communication of some sort has actually occured, or if claims of direction are just more of their hot air.

This would make a good conversation over a beer

sabastious

I guess it would ultimately depend on whether real communication of some sort has actually occured, or if claims of direction are just more of their hot air.

We're getting warmer... warmer...

-Sab

The Watchtower and the Occult

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