Bible says God confused peoples languages at Babel....is this childish nonsense?

by Witness 007 66 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • debator
    debator

    The Bible account is substantiated by evidence from languages themselves.

    "However, the existing state of human language nevertheless suggests that the variety of dialects and sub-languages has developed from a relatively few (perhaps even less than twenty) languages. These original ‘proto-languages’—from which all others allegedly have developed—were distinct within themselves, with no previous ancestral language. "

    http://www.trueorigin.org/language01.asp

    There are more on this showing that several unique languages originally formed a basis from which the multiplicity of languages we have today have branched out from. This is the reality of the bible account being true. Darwinism only allows for one proto-language which has been disproved by the evidence of several original proto-languages unique in themselves.

    To be honest the reality of so many languages proves the bible so the burden of proof lies on those that say it is a myth when the evidence points to it being true.

    Hi Leolaia

    Your point only shows that there are other accounts of the same thing from other sources though not inspired. A similar situation found in the many flood accounts that are from many disparate nations. Obviously your point is to put more accuracy on these rather than the bible account but that is only your opinion. When given a choice of two or more, for me the bible account gives more factual answers that are checkably accurate, as apposed to mythology from the uninspired nations that only have racial memory of these events to draw from so similarity but not accuracy.

  • EndofMysteries
    EndofMysteries

    I'm sure some of the ancient things could have been inspired, IF everyone is taking the bible literal. The Priest Melchezidek (I think, In Gen 14), in what way was he a true priest of the most high? They had to have known something back then and had something to go on lol.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    "However, the existing state of human language nevertheless suggests that the variety of dialects and sub-languages has developed from a relatively few (perhaps even less than twenty) languages. These original ‘proto-languages’—from which all others allegedly have developed—were distinct within themselves, with no previous ancestral language. "

    http://www.trueorigin.org/language01.asp

    As a professional historical linguist, I find this statement ridiculous in the extreme.

    1) There are perhaps twenty major language families, but there are many, many more isolates and languages that cannot be fit into these families. Basque, for instance, is the sole survivor of a family that is otherwise now extinct. What family did Sumerian belong to? Ainu? There are many families that once existed that have no surviving members. What survives to the present day is only a fraction of the total number of language families that have existed.

    2) The claim that reconstructed proto-languages, like Proto-Indo-European, are "distinct within themselves" and have "no previous ancestral language" is nonsense. There is a limit to the method of comparative linguistics in retriving proto-languages; that the methodology can only allow the linguist to peer about 7,000 to 10,000 years max into the past is not evidence in the slightest that in fact these proto-languages lack more distant relatives or earlier progenitors. Here is a thought experiment: Imagine that it is the year AD 9000. The world is filled with many languages, but there are some language families that are distantly descended from French, Spanish, Italian, and English. All the other Indo-European branches have long since died out. It is possible to compare all the many hundreds of descendents of Spanish spoken throughout the world and determine that these all derive from a single language spoken around AD 2000. Let's call that proto-language "Spanish". And the same with all the languages that developed out of French and Italian. Meanwhile there are several hundred languages spoken throughout the world that can be reconstructed to another proto-language; let's call it "Future English". It can only be reconstructed as far back to AD 5000, because it has changed so much. There are some similarities between this English proto-language and those equivalent to modern French, Italian, and Spanish. But it is impossible to define what kind of relationship that is. Meanwhile, one could develop an even earlier proto-language for French, Italian, and Spanish dating to AD 500; let's call this "Latin". That's as far as the evidence would go. There is no evidence that would allow one to go as far back as Proto-Indo-European, as we could today. There is just not enough evidence. One cannot claim that because of this situation, Latin had no previous ancestral language, or that English had no previous ancestor. That is kind of similar to the situation I am describing here.

    3) The proto-languages of major language families are far more ancient than the supposed chronological timeframe of the Genesis narrative (e.g. c. 2250 BC). Even within Mesopotamia itself we have before this date a multiplicity of languages: the pre-Sumerian language of Mesopotamia from which most of the toponyms came, Sumerian, Akkadian, and to the west we have Eblaite (which is a dialectal branch of Akkadian) and to the east we have the languages of other peoples like Harappan in the Indus Valley (likely Dravidian). Meanwhile at the same time in Egypt we have Egyptian, which itself is but a sub-branch of Afro-Asiatic. The proto-language for this family, Proto-Afro-Asiatic, has a very deep time depth, likely as deep as 7000 BC or more. The Austronesian migration from Taiwan into the Pacific can be dated archaeologically, with agrees well with linguistic evidence, indicating that Proto-Austronesian goes back to about 5000 BC, and Proto-Austronesian in turn has possible long distance relationships with other SE Asian language families, such as Tai-Kadai. The Papuan and Australian languages do not form genetically-related macrofamilies and instead comprise clusters of isolates and smaller unrelated families. This is reflective of the much deeper time depth involved in the languages of these peoples (which cannot be resolved into proto-language reconstruction); the peopling of New Guinea and Australia is rather securely dated to the Paleolithic era.

    There are more on this showing that several unique languages originally formed a basis from which the multiplicity of languages we have today have branched out from. This is the reality of the bible account being true.

    It is impossible to derive "the multiplicity of languages we have today" from several known prehistoric languages. It is far beyond the limits of comparative methodology to posit what such languages were. There are no linguistic facts that suggest that all of the world's languages have a very recent origin; all the evidence is against this.

    Darwinism only allows for one proto language which has been disproved by the evidence of sveral original languages unique in themselves.

    You are talking about whatever was the first proto-language way back when the human species appeared. This has nothing to do with the linguistic diversity that existed some 10,000 to 5,000 years ago, when the reconstructed proto-languages existed. You assume incorrectly that these proto-languages were the "original" languages when these are simply the oldest languages that could be reconstructed with the methodology we have.

    To be honest the reality of so many languages proves the bible so the burden of proof lies on those that say it is a myth when the evidence points to it being true.

    LOL. The real burden of proof is to show contrary to all the evidence that 1) linguistic diversity emerged only since the second millennium BC and that 2) the mechanism for this change was supernatural and unlike any known kind of language change ever observed (e.g. with whole groups of unrelated languages emerging abruptly suddenly from a single language in a single speech community).

  • THE GLADIATOR
    THE GLADIATOR

    A few years ago I started tearing all the pages that I didn't believe out of my bible.

    Now I don't know what to do with the cover.

  • debator
    debator

    Hi leolaia

    I see we both agree that there are many unique languages and that some "change" happened. It is allowable that some isolated languages didn't go further than one group that then died out having no reason for the language itself to evolve much beyond the first expression of it with no interaction with other languages or development beyond the original form. The bible only says God made a multiplicity of languages not saying more than this on how they then evolved within themselves. I prefer the bible explanation since it is an explanation. You show we have these many languages but you give no explanation for them.

    You say they "are more ancient" than the bible account but that is just estimated opinion on information that is scrappy at best and very subjective changing from scholar to scholar. You agree it is in "recent history" The bible account was writen by inspiration many 100's years after these events happened. So the dating of the bible being written is not applicable.

    Your methodology does not disagree with the bible account. The bible says God made us a diverse language people and this is what we are. Darwinism can offer no explanation for this, it has to fitted in as an assumption of unexplained fact.

  • Holey_Cheeses*King_of_the juice.
    Holey_Cheeses*King_of_the juice.

    debator. Are you the same debator from Masseschusetts? As that would make you the outright Mass.debator.

    Cheeses. In a frivolous frame of mind.

  • Fester
    Fester

    The story of the tower of Babel is about totemic god destruction. The ancient Hebrew religion was mostly totemic in nature, and Moses/Aaron/Joshua (or the writers claiming those names) wanted to eliminate the Egyptian idolatry that carried over after their escape and exodus from Egypt. Israel didn't want any totems in their religion, and the Babel story was there to scare the new breed.

    For a really good book that details all the sources of most of the biblical myth, please check out Sergei Tokarev's History of Religion, a rather unbias work.

  • wobble
    wobble

    Thank you Leo for your contribution, this is something I was going to research out of pure interest, you have sent me on my way well equipped to understand what I learn.

    In answer to the thread title, I guess it seems to us like childish nonsense, as do "Debators" attempts to defend it, but to me it is "of its time", it is quaint, but not credible.

  • JustHuman14
    JustHuman14

    Chinese is a 5000 year old language and along with the Hellenic are the only old languages in the World that they are still spoken. We have to take into consideration when the first civilazation started and the location.

    We know it was in Mesopotamia, when we have the first organized cities and laws and the first recorded law was the Hammurabi Code. That is why all of the legends and stories have common things, like Noahs Flood, based upon the oldest story of Gilgamesh in Sumeria.

    There is also Egypt that indeed has tremendous history that goes back 7000 years and shares many common thinks with Creteans, but the oldest languages are still spoken today are the 2 above. So China has nothing to do with Mesopotamia area, that means they developed their own language long before the story of Babel, and Greece has nothing to do with the Semetic language, since the Hellenic language is different, in writting and sound, that is why the word Barbarian, comes from the Greek -Varvarus(β?ρβαρος) and it was used for those who didn't speak Hellenic, and specially for those living in Mesopotamia. So when Greeks listen to them speaking, it sounded like var-var-var-var(exactly like when you listen to Arabic language that has Semetic origins)so in order to give a linguistic definition, Greeks called the non-Greeks-Varvari (barbarian)

    English that is a modern language is based 40% upon Greek words, latin, French,Celtish, Saxon. So taking into serious consideration the Babel story there are many thinks that don't fit.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    I see we both agree that there are many unique languages and that some "change" happened.

    What "change"? Change happens in language all the time. You seem to be talking about some single "change" happening akin to what is described in Genesis. There is no evidence of such a "change" at all.

    Of course there are many "unique" languages: isolates, unclassified languages, and smaller-scale families beyond the major genetic groupings. That is precisely what one would expect with linguistic diversity going very far back into human history.

    It is allowable that some isolated languages didn't go further than one group that then died out having no reason for the language itself to evolve much beyond the first expression of it with no interaction with other languages or development beyond the original form.

    This is nothing more than special pleading; it is just your presupposition that such a language is "the first expression" or "original form" of said language, you have done nothing to show the very unusual circumstance that a language has no ancestor and never had any relatives (there is a big difference between "not now having" and "never had"). Languages become isolated genetically when all other relatives die out, frequently when a language community shifts to newer languages. This has happened many times in the Americas when native Americans shifted to Spanish, English, and other colonial languages; scores and scores of native American languages are now extinct, and if it weren't for the documentation of their prior native tongues, we'd now have quite a few isolates that are sole surviving members of extinct families.

    There were many languages spoken in Iberia, Gaul, and the Mediterranean prior to the colonization of these areas by the Romans, Celts, and other Indo-Europeans. Such colonization involved the replacement of pre-Indo-European languages in these areas. We can find the residue of such languages as loanwords and names in Greek and Latin, and attested in inscriptions. Throughout the Mediterranean there were many languages and language families that preceded the Indo-European languages, but too few of them are adequately attested to classify their genetic relationships internally and to other external families. Today the language family that Etruscan belonged to is extinct, and Etruscan itself is extinct. Etruscan itself was a member of the Tyrsenian language family, with Lemnian and Rhaetic as members, and possibily the still-undeciphered Minoan was a member, but beyond that it is difficult to say what the relationships were, as writing takes us back only to about 500 BC or so and we don't have enough evidence to reconstruct proto-languages going further back in time. But place names suggest the existence of other now-extinct Tyrsenian languages in Sardinia, the western Alps, and Liguria, indicating that the Tyrsenian family was a quite large one in the distant past. Similarly in the Iberian peninsula, there were unclassified languages like Aquitanian, Iberian, and Tartessian which were likely members of other now-extinct language families in the region; Aquitanian itself is clearly a relative or ancestor of Basque. And all of this is in an area that at least as some written records going back to 500 BC or more. Most parts of the world do not have any written documentation at all until the modern era. All the many languages that went extinct in antiquity have not left their evidence for us today.

    In short, absence of evidence is not by itself evidence of absence. You have not shown that a given isolate in fact never had any relatives or ancestors (a wholly unattested phenomenon), or your underlying presumption that linguistic diversity is of such recent vintage.

    The bible only says God made a multiplicity of languages not saying more than this on how they then evolved within themselves. I prefer the bible explanation since it is an explanation.

    You prefer it because it is authoritative in your religious tradition, not that it gives an "explanation" of the linguistic facts. It is a "just so" story. It doesn't actually explain the empirical facts, and especially cannot harmonize with all the evidence that a multiplicity of languages already existed in the late third millennium BC and had existed for a very long time.

    You show we have these many languages but you give no explanation for them.

    Unlike your reliance on a "just so" story, linguists have studied and described the processes of language change for generations. There are countless studies and books on how languages change over time and split into new languages. Romance studies is filled with studies on how Latin developed into the whole family of modern-day Romance languages. Linguistic processes underlying these changes have been well-studied as well.

    You say they "are more ancient" than the bible account but that is just estimated opinion on information that is scrappy at best and very subjective changing from scholar to scholar.

    Not a single historical linguist would ever think that all of the language families of the world got their start ab ovo in the third millennium BC. Only a crank would hold such a view in the field of linguistics. There is not a scintilla of evidence intimating such shallow time depth, whereas there are countless signs everywhere that linguistic variety goes back many millennia. The evidence of ancient Egyptian and Sumerian alone show this to be the case, and the evidence of the early date of Sumerian and Egyptian is hardly "scrappy" or a matter of disagreement among scholars.

    You agree it is in "recent history"

    I have no idea what I am supposed to agree is in "recent history".

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit