The stars will fall from the sky... but maybe they are better where they are?

by M*A*S*H 10 Replies latest jw experiences

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  M*A*S*H

  As an atheist interested in debate I have often accused religious folk of suffering cognitive dissonance on many issues. I stupidly thought I might be immune to such dissonance. However now I find myself in a battle for my own mind with no obvious end in sight.

  I remember being taught as a young JW that the following passage in Mark "The stars will fall from the sky, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken." related to the signs of the times and the destruction of world religions. I am no fan of religion and part of me almost looked forward to a scenario where religion would be 'fall'. Finally a JW prophecy I could look forward to ;o)

  However, in the current climate of the world, it does now seem we are seeing a backlash against Islam and other religions (to a lesser degree). For example many Muslims and Jewish people are being ostracised and made to feel strangers in their own countries like the UK, France and the US - partly because of the religion they are practising (or at least assumed to be practising).

  As the intolerance of others grows in many countries, I now fear the lengths civil liberties may suffer. I fear the blurred distinctions between race and religion will spiral out of control. I fear the far right rumblings across the political landscape. I fear the ultra international isolationists are gaining ground. Most of all I fear the seemingly growing popular hatred of religious people and the effects on those people.

  Generally I believe the world be a better place without religion however the way things are going, I fear for the future. I find myself wanting to support the very thing I have been biased against.

  Confused!
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  Hi Mash,

  Not to worry about the so-called "signs of the time". They were for another time altogether. They related to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD

  Matthew 24

  
  

  29. IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE
  DAYS SHALL THE SUN B E DARKENED, AND THE MOON
  NOT GIVE HER LIGHT, AND THE STARS SHALL FALL
  FROM HEAVEN, AND THE POWERS OF THE HEAVENS
  SHALL BE SHAKEN:

  
  

  Most people assume the vivid language must describe the end of
  the world. But notice that this apocalyptic language is preceded
  by the word "IMMEDIATELY". It was immediately after the
  tribulation of those days that the sun would be darkened etc. The
  Jewish nation was about to be darkened; virtually obliterated.
  God, in His righteous wrath was removing the Jewish nation from
  His heavens. As the moon, Judaism would no longer reflect the
  Light of God; its stars, the prophets and Fathers would no longer
  shine for Israel of the flesh.

  
  QUESTION: Can we be justified in stating that the sun, moon and
  stars are figurative of Judaism and its glories?

  WHEN WE LET SCRIPTURE INTERPRET SCRIPTURE, we
  find the same language in the OT depicting the destruction of
  Babylon , Egypt, Tyre and Idumea.

  
  

  Is.13:9, 10 is a prediction of God's judgment on Babylon
  "Behold the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and
  and fierce anger to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the
  sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the
  constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be
  darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light
  to shine.

  If the Holy Spirit speaking through the prophet Isaiah uses such
  figurative language to describe the downfall of a heathen nation
  like Babylon, how much more would not such language be used to
  describe the downfall of the chosen nation of Israel?

  
  Is.34:4,5 Regarding the destruction of the insignificant nation of
  Idumea, Isaiah writes:
  And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens
  shall be rolled together as a scroll...
  For my sword shall be bathed in heaven; behold it shall come
  down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to
  judgment.

  If the Holy Spirit speaking through the prophet Isaiah uses such
  figurative language to describe the downfall of such an
  insignificant nation as Idumea, how much more would not such
  language be used to describe the downfall of the chosen nation of
  Israel?

  Ez.32:2, 7,8 Ezekiel's prediction of God's judgment on Egypt
  incorporates similar vivid language.
  "Son of man, take up a lamentation for Pharaoh king of
  Egypt...
  And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and I
  will make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a
  cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. All the bright
  lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness
  upon thy land, saith the Lord God.

  
  

  If the Holy Spirit speaking through the prophet Ezekiel uses such
  figurative language to describe the downfall of a heathen nation
  like Egypt, how much more would not such language be used to
  describe the downfall of the chosen nation of Israel?
  Acts 2:16-21 Is.19:1 Ps.97:2,3 Mat.26:64

  
  OF COURSE THIS LANGUAGE CAN AND DOES APPLY TO
  ISRAEL.

  Dan.8:10-11, speaking of the conquest of Rome over Israel, says:
  And it (one horn) waxed great, even to the host of heaven;
  and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground,
  and stamped on them. Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince
  of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the
  place of the sanctuary cast down. (See also Jer.4:26 Mt.26:64
  Mat.16:28)

  "The Jesus we see in the Gospels, and especially in Matthew’s own account, regularly envisaged events of judgment and vindication which were to come about in the generation to which he was sent. The cross, the resurrection and ascension, and the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70 were all such events. Jesus invested these events with a cosmic and theological significance beyond what would have been readily obvious to a casual bystander."
• 

  M*A*S*H

  @V

  Thanks for the info.

  I would not particularly say I am "worried" by any biblical prophesy (as I said I am atheist)... I am interested in the motivations and understanding of those that wrote the bible but that is as far as it goes.

  Usually I find looking too deep into the bible is counter productive, especially when dealing with someone like myself, an unbeliever.

  The primary goal of my OP was to discuss how people feel about the way religion seems to be increasingly under attack, and in my case I feel increasingly uncomfortable with that fact - despite my feelings on religion on a personal level.
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  Vanderhoven7

  @ M.A.S.H.

  Gotcha. I just think it interesting that JWs try to apply these verses literally and tie them to current events without reference to context and prior usage in the hopes, of course, that fear will be generated.
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  Chris Hannover

  For civil and human rights to progress, religion must be removed at some point.

  Religious "virtues" and "morality" condemn humanity and ignore civil rights in favor of divine authority.

  For society and individuals to become healthy, our human nature must be understood, accepted, and appreciated. More evolutionary biology and less burn-them-at-the-stake.
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  M*A*S*H

  For civil and human rights to progress, religion must be removed at some point.

  Do you really mean 'removed' or perhaps you mean die out?
• 

  M*A*S*H

  @Vanderhoven7

  I always feel the JW's have to walk a fine line... they desperately want some of their prophesies to come true, but of course once they have judged a particular prophesy 'to have occurred', they have now used it up (if you know what I mean). Potentially they then run the risk of having to back down and admit what they thought occurred was wrong too. I suppose that is a good reason to pluck out somewhat dubious prophesies and fear monger with them!
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  Chris Hannover

  Do you really mean 'removed' or perhaps you mean die out?

  Either removed or die out, everything will happen however it will happen.

  Should slavery have been allowed to die out naturally or did it need to be removed?

  As we grow in knowledge, schools of thought that threaten human decency are removed if they don't die out. Religion is actively resisting humanity's growth and that may ultimately destroy it by whatever means.
• 

  Finkelstein

  The weaken observance and practice of religion all over the world hasn't happen because of bible prophecy its happened particularly in the last century due a increase in education, knowledge and public inquiry.

  The recent evaluation of religious beliefs has taken a bit more prominence due to the recent barbaric social behavior of hatred and violence, spurred on the religious extremists highlighted by the 9-11 attack in New York.

  Look again at the behavior of the religious group known as ISIL and there again you can see a connection to this groups behavior directly connected to the Quran, a religious book of social direction written 1400 years ago.

  Modern secular moral standards have grown in most modernized countries and they have removed much of the oppression and social injustice that religion has placed within those social environments and will most likely continue to do so.

  The end times prophecies spoken about in the bible are just mythological expressions based in fiction and human ignorance, told so to create power and relevance to a select imagined god.

  No fear is warranted or justified .

  This assertion of actuality connected to those ancient mythological stories, is a little surprising coming from a person who has assumed a position of atheism.
  
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  pronomono

  @Vanderhoven7
  I always feel the JW's have to walk a fine line... they desperately want some of their prophesies to come true, but of course once they have judged a particular prophesy 'to have occurred', they have now used it up (if you know what I mean). Potentially they then run the risk of having to back down and admit what they thought occurred was wrong too. I suppose that is a good reason to pluck out somewhat dubious prophesies and fear monger with them!

  I know exactly what you mean. Sad thing is that they've done just that, and with no mass fall out. This is part of the reason many of us are here today. Think Christ's enthronement and presence, 1914, who really are the faithful and discreet slave, new light, and many more. These are all instances where they used up one prophesy only to have an "Oh, shit!" moment, and then they changed it with new light to suit their purposes. With their power, they were able to present the history of the doctrine in a favorable light due to indoctrination so that nobody noticed (or those who did weren't affected enough to realize the true impact of the change). The more time that passes between these types of things, the easier it is to play it off. But now with the internet, this is becoming more difficult to hide.