Does the Bible actually and specifically teach an eternal Earth paradise?

by JWoods 15 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  JWoods

  Disclaimer - I have left behind all the JW and other religious speculation on this and am now a non-religious scientific thinker on the subject.

  So, for me - Earth is the planet we live on. Both Earth and all of us have a finite lifetime - and it is up to us NOW what we do with both.

  But, as a question for exJWs like myself: Much is made in the JW theology of an eternal "paradise" Earth. Putting aside how much scientific nonsense that may be:

  Does the Bible specifically say that there is such a thing as an eternal physical paradise on this planet Earth? I cannot think of anyplace it really does - the witness teaching on this is by a combination of this and that supposition and assumption if I remember it correctly. The versus used could really be more readily understood as something symbolic or heavenly.

  Anybody else have something to post on this?
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  THE GLADIATOR

  The Bible doesn't actually and specifically teach anything. What was specific in the old testament is rescinded in the new testament.

  The things that appear to be specific to the non-believer throughout the Bible, are dismissed by believers if they are inconvenient or embarrassingly, do not support their brand of Christianity.

  So you see, JWwoods - Paradise is likely to remain, forever beyond your reach whether in heaven or on earth. Why not, take the cash in hand and waive the rest
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  PSacramento

  I don't really thinkm uch about paradise or the after life, not really a big issue in my faith.

  God gaves us the world, if you believe that, and I am sure God will ask us why we made a mess of it when we have in our power, to make a paradise of it.

  To me, my answer to THAT question is far more important than IF there is a paradise and where is it.
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  AnnOMaly

  Does the Bible specifically say that there is such a thing as an eternal physical paradise on this planet Earth?

  No, but it does teach a new (or renewed?) earth (2 Pet. 3). Rev 21 talks about the 'new Jerusalem' descending from heaven to earth and then God would dwell with mankind (heaven and earth integrated in some sense). Many mainstream churches believe that heaven, rather than being the eternal destiny of believers, is merely the intermediate state (the JW version would be the 'in God's memory' state) where the deceased await a physical, bodily resurrection to a (re)new(ed) earth. So although the Bible doesn't use the phrase "earthly Paradise," there can be a case made for the idea of the earth being the ultimate destiny for believers.

  See for example: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1710844,00.html
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  JWoods

  Anne Omaly - yes, this was the point of the thread. The actual scriptures on which an eternal Earth paradise are based by the Witnesses are subject to a wide array of interpretation.

  The notion of "new Jerusalem" descending "down out of heaven" is certainly subject to a symbolic interpretation, no?

  And then, for people of a scientific interest, there is the problem of such things as the eventual life cycle completion of the sun, orbital and climactic changes in the Earth, and so on.
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  Terry

  I imagine the Watchtower Society got the idea by reading the works of Papias (what is left of his writings).

  Papias lived between 60 c.e. and 125 c.e. and interviewed as many people as he could find who were still alive who

  heard and saw Jesus (apostles, disciples, etc.).

  Papias reported as accurately as he could what they told him.

  Unfortunately, if you accept what he tells us, those people were out of their freaking minds! At least, that is what the first official

  Church Historian, Eusebius, thought and said so.

  Mind you, Papias did not say they were out of their minds. Eusebius said Papias was!

  Why?

  Papias reported the direct teachings of the Apostles and Jesus as consisting of a 10,000 year reign on Earth with paradise restored.

  Freddy Franz saw no problem in limiting that to a 1,000 year reign to HARMONIZE it with the other scriptures.

  The orthodox church under Constantine considered chillism heretical and consigned Papias to the scrap heap.
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  Terry

  Just a snippet of Papias' writings to give you the flavor...

  Irenæus (Adv. Hær., v. 33, 3), quotes the fourth book of Papias as authority for our Lord's saying:-

  ["The days will come in which vines shall grow, having each ten thousand branches, and in each branch ten thousand twigs, and in each true twig ten thousand shoots, and in every one of the shoots ten thousand clusters, and in every one of the clusters ten thousand grapes; and every grape when pressed will give twenty-five metretes (i.e., two hundred and twenty-five English gallons). And when any one of the saints shall lay bold of a cluster, another shall cry out, 'I am a better cluster: take me. Bless the Lord through me.' In like manner lie said that a grain of wheat would produce ten thousand ears, and that every ear would have ten thousand grains, and every grain would yield ten pounds of clear, pure, fine flour; and that apples and seeds and grass would produce in similar proportions; and that all animals, feeding then only on the productions of the earth, would become peaceable and harmonious, and he in perfect subjection to man."]

  Eusebius apparently refers to this passage (Hist. Eccl., iii. 39) in proof that Papias interpreted the future millennium as a corporeal reign of Christ on this very earth, and further says that Papias misunderstood the apostolic mystical narrations. Eusebius, moreover, charges Papias with leading Irenæus and most of the ecclesiastical writers to chiliastic notions.
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  JWoods

  Terry, interesting on Papius, and again it illustrates how little may really remain of early christian writings (the part we call the NT canon).

  So, 10,000 years? That idea didn't make it, I guess.

  And then, the part where physical Earth just goes on into unscientific eternity is just kind of up to the imagination - not really spelled out in any current scripture.

  Amazing how much faith the millions of JWs are putting into something so biblically vague.
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  BluesBrother

  When I was in the process of re thinking everything, I realised that the only things that The Bible clearly and specifically teaches are the very basics of Christianity that are common to all Christan faiths , the stuff you can find in any church. Anything else is an add on provided by the reasoning of men.
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  MrMonroe

  The Witnesses' Millenarian beliefs have nothing to do with Rutherford. The hope of a 1000-year-long rule by Christ was at the core of Russell's first books, which were based on the Millerite teachings, which were in turn rooted in much older beliefs.