My JW Friend's Justification for the WT Being God's Chosen Organisation

by maputo95 22 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  maputo95

  Hi All

  Below is my JW friend's "proof" that the WT is God's ONLY organisation and mouthpiece on earth. He has yet to reinforce his strange story by biblical text or The Church Fathers or any historical evidence.

  Please, suggest how I may respond to his assertion. I believe that this is the fundamental doctrine of the 'borg' and the one on which WT credibility rests.

  Thank you.

  IN 1919, THE “2 DEAD WITNESSES WERE BROUGHT TO LIFE” (SYMBOLICALLY) AND STOOD UP AGAIN TO START THE WORLDWIDE PREACHING WORK AFTER BEING INACTIVE (IMPORISONED,ETC IN WW1)

  THESE WERE THE FAITHFUL AND DISCREET SLAVE CLASS WHO WERE GIVEN THE COMMAND TO AWAKEN AND RE-STARTT THE BOLD WORLDWIDE PREACHING WORK - AS PROPHECIED IN REVELATION…

  1919 WAS ALSO THE BEGINNING OF A TOTAL CLEAN BREAK FROM CHRISTENDOM AND HER BABYLONISH TEACHINGS AND DOCTRINES
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  teel

  This "prophecy" relies on setting the year 1914 as Christ's second invisible coming. 1914 is based on a historically inaccurate date of Jerusalem's destruction in 607 BC by the babylonians. If (and that's a big IF) you can prove him that 607 is incorrect, then 1914 is incorrect, 1919 is incorrect, and the whole religion is nothing more than a group of power hungry men leading blind people.

  Ask him to prove from outside the Watchtower that 607 was indeed the time when Jerusalem was destroyed. There are absolutely no historians (except dodgy JW ones) that would have a doubt that Jerusalem was destroyed in 587/586 BC. Your friend's main line of reasoning will be that the history is inaccurate, the Bible prophesised that Jerusalem will be destroyed for 70 years, and from historical records (yep, I'm sure you already picked up the weirdness of all) we know that the end of the jewish exile was in 539 BC when Darius freed them, and after 2 years in 537 BC they got home, ending the 70 years period the Bible foretold, so it must have started in 607.

  The most obvious error in this is that the exact same sources that say 539 BC also say 587 BC as Jerusalem's destruction, so you can not just say one of the date is not reliable, and the other is. JW's have no problem with that anyway...

  This is a major issue for us, ex-JW, so you can find a huge amount of resources on the net, including explanation how the 70 years prophesised doesn't conflict with the historical records.
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  Witness 007

  Things Witnesses still believed in after 1919 going to War, everyone going to heaven.....the cross, Christmas, Smoking {till the 1960's} Armagedon coming in 1925 according to bible chronology....only Charles Russell is "the faithful slave.....break from Christendom my ass!
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  Chalam

  Welcome maputo95 !

  IN 1919, THE “2 DEAD WITNESSES WERE BROUGHT TO LIFE” (SYMBOLICALLY) AND STOOD UP AGAIN TO START THE WORLDWIDE PREACHING WORK AFTER BEING INACTIVE (IMPORISONED,ETC IN WW1)

  Maybe you should get him to read the account of the two witnesses.

  Revelation 11 (New International Version)

  The Two Witnesses

  1 I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, "Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there. 2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth." 4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. 5 If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. 6 These men have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.

  7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. 8 Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. 9 For three and a half days men from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. 10 The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.

  11 But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. 12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.

  13 At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

  14 The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon.

  OK, here are some questions for your friend.

  1. The Holy City is mentioned in verses 2, 8 and 13. In fact verse 8 records this explicitly as where Jesus died. Is this city literally Jerusalem or symbolic only?

  2. Verse 6 says they have the power to stop it raining and to turn the waters into blood. Did Elijah and Moses do these things literally or is it just figurative? James 5:17 Exodus 7:20

  3. Verse 11 says these men came to life after being dead. Did all these people come to literal life or just symbolically? Luke 24:39Acts 9:39-41Acts 20:9-11Matthew 9:23-25 John 11:42-44

  4. Verse 12 says they ascended to heaven as their enemies looked on. Did Jesus do this figuratively or literally? Acts 1:9

  Hope that helps :)

  Blessings,

  Stephen
• 

  wobble

  Even to claim that 1919 saw a "beginning" of a break with B the G is a lie. there are no signs of that, as W007 says, they continued in their practices,as listed above, plus blood transfusion was left to the Doctor to decide, birthdays were celebrated etc. etc.

  The " food at the proper time" they were distributing was the looney-tunes 7th Vol of Studies in the Scriptures "The Finished Mystery" which claimed Jesus had returned in the 1870's. in amongst it's more lunatic explanations of scripture.

  Sept 15th WT 1918 taught that the "Church" (the Bible Students, later JW's) were not under the New Covenant, natural Israel was.

  Strange they were being chosen but knew nothing of this choosing, or the doctrines it would be based on.

  I could write for hours on the twaddle they were teaching at the time.

  As Ray Franz said, "It is an insult to the intelligence of Jesus Christ to say that he appointed them in 1919 on the basis of what they were uniquely teaching" (quote is from memory, not verbatim)

  Ask your friend to show you ONE unique and different teaching that they were promulgating in 1919, that they still hold to today,that would have persuaded Jesus,( who is not just a supporter of truth, but is THE Truth), to choose Rutherford's Bible Students .

  I have asked that question of many an active Witness, and NEVER had an answer.

  Just one teaching.satisfying the above criteria,is all I ask, and really one should not be enough, but what possible reason could Jesus have for choosing them then (or now, of course) ?

  This is fundamental to the claim of the present day GB to have authority over 7 million Dubs, and yet they have NO PROOF, it boils down to "we are God's chosen channel, because we say we are".

  Love

  Wobble
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  JimmyPage

  Ask your friend to prove 1919 has any significance at all using just the Bible alone and no WT publications.
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  cantleave

  Most of it has been said.

  1914 is based on the unverified and contested date of 607BCE.

  After 1919 the organisation was still practising many of the pagan traditions and all the teachings of that period have subsequently been dropped. Rutherford made many false predictions including the return of the ancients in 1925. The list to prove 1919 was NOT the time when god chose the organisation is very long indeed.
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  Heaven

  IN 1919, THE “2 DEAD WITNESSES WERE BROUGHT TO LIFE” (SYMBOLICALLY)

  Hadn't heard that one before. Sounds like they're making this stuff up as they go along.

  The " food at the proper time" they were distributing was the looney-tunes 7th Vol of Studies in the Scriptures "The Finished Mystery" which claimed Jesus had returned in the 1870's. in amongst it's more lunatic explanations of scripture.

  Wobble...now that's funny!

  As JimmyPage pointed out, the Bible should be the proving grounds and not their own publications. This was the barometer I used as a teen to show they couldn't possibly be "God's Chosen" along with everything else they claim. It also showed me that Bible scripture can be used anyway anyone wants it to.
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  WalkTall

  Going along with what Heaven said about how the Bible can be used anyway anyone wants to, and especially since Revelation is symbolic, any nutcase can come along and say he (or they) fulfill those scriptures. And many nutcases have! How many crazy fringe cults have started because someone says they fulfill some scripture and then they get a following. It's scary.
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  leavingwt

  Facts are impotent when faced with the Power of Belief.

  There is no need to discuss doctrine until AFTER the person has agreed to examine his religion with a critical eye.

  This person has a closed mind. He will defend the indefensible, despite the evidence/facts/reality.

  You'd be better served by discussing Phobias & Fears with this person, as presented in Steve Hassan's second book, 'Releasing the Bonds'.