Are you a victim of the ROYAL SCAM?

by Terry 16 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Terry
    Terry

    We begin with the tension between the Law of Moses and the Paul the Apostle version.

    The Law of Moses was a law that required PHYSICAL compliance in order for PHYSICAL enforcement to follow.

    Circumcision was physical. Stoning was physical. Slaughtering an ox was physical. Ritual cleansing was physical.

    Can we all agree on that? Can we agree not to mix up what the law ACTUALLY CONSISTED OF with our highly-Pauline-influenced interpretations?

    The very concept of "sin" is concerned with BEHAVIOR.

    BEHAVIOR IS PHYSICAL.

    Please note that it is Greek thinking (Plato) to mix the "ideal" into the physical realm and regard the physical as a mere shadowy manifestation of the divine world. Alexander the Great carried Greek thought (i.e. philosophy) into the Middle East. It had a shattering impact on Judaism. Their theology was never the same.

    Jesus came AFTER the influence of Greek Philosophy and even the Greek language swallowed up Judaism. Few Jews could speak Hebrew when Jesus and Paul were on the scene! Even the scriptures (Hebrew!) were now Greek ( septuagint ).

    We cannot view THE LAW OF MOSES backward through the lens of Roman/Greek thinking and not color how we see and define the reality of what it was.

    Agreed?

    Okay....

    The nation of Israel is a misnomer until we see the people united under the concept of a BINDING LAW. For a law to be binding it must carry enforcement. How a law is administered (penalty) determines how strong the law actually is.

    Why would anybody agree to obey a law without penalty? The authority behind law enforcement is the power of penalty and reward.

    Citizens don't drive 55 m.p.h. because it is morally superior behavior to do so. Citizens drive 55 m.p.h. because the posted speed limit is enforced by fines and insurance rate hikes!

    So too in Israel.

    The "authority" behind the Law of Moses was the notion (sold to the citizenry by Levites) that they weren't making up the silly rules themselves. They told the citizens that it came from GOD.

    (A sidebar here: The Levites had a free ride with all the perks by officiating "on behalf" of God's law.)

    The enforcement of these laws was the physical penalty of punishment which could consist of having your head bashed in with a rock by your neighbors, or your parents! That was the incentive to obey the law.

    Back to my point.

    The Law of Moses was physical in every manifestation worth considering. The superstitious elements kept the rituals alive.

    It is a ridiculously easy thing to claim God approves what you are doing if you represent your priestly services as having come from God in the first place. Of what does a "blessing" consist when you come right down to it???

    Anytime something goes wrong with your "blessing" you can be blamed for it because of the "covenant" aspect of the Blessing and the Malediction. To wit: you bring hardship on yourself; God cannot be blamed for your malady.

    It was an illusory relationship between Israel and God. The real and genuine actuality was this: Judaism consisted of Levitical quid pro quo under the banner of service to God.

    Why do you think Israel was always being enticed into worshipping idols instead of engaging in ritual sacrifices at the Temple of Jehovah?

    The blessings didn't happen!! It was all smoke and mirrors! The promises were lies! Even a dullard would figure it couldn't hurt to at least try one of the local deities instead. What did they have to lose? Jehovah's wasn't giving them anything.

    When Alexander the Great brought Platonic thought into the Middle East it was the psychological end of Judaism.

    A series of re-thinks was constantly applied to the entire "meaning" of what it meant to be a Jew.

    Jews and Judaism became......RATIONAL!! (At least a few of their great thinkers did.)

    Jews realized that the Messianic aspect was the ONLY aspect that could bring blessings and results.

    Do you know what I am saying?

    ONLY THROUGH AN ACTUAL PERSON (Messiah, king, military leader who actually does something) would the Jews be able to acquire blessings of freedom and prosperity.

    THE IDEAL was always that God would do it miraculously and it never happened. This only left the last resort of MAKING BLESSINGS HAPPEN through human agency and calling it a miracle.

    That is the real meaning of the Messianic hope.

    Jesus was only one of many such hopes that died by various ends.

    It was the Greek Philosophy interpretation of what a Messiah was in Paul's speeches and writings that created an alternate way of dealing with all those centuries of failure that appealed to the Jews and Gentiles alike.

    Paul "spiritualized" the promises and made them look like a great long-term solution rather than an abject failure.

    The downtrodden who needed hope and miracles bought Paul's hokum.

    And guess what? It has been re-re-interpreted over and over again by sects and branches of Christianity again and again. But, the kicker is this: WE DON'T GET ANY BLESSINGS!!

    Why?

    BECAUSE THE REWARDS ARE ALWAYS IN THE NEAR FUTURE.

    The gimmick is the return of Jesus the Messiah. For the Jews it had been the "coming of the Messiah" and for Christians it is the "return of the Messiah".

    Nothing ever happens!

    Get it?

    It is carrot and stick and nothing more.

    The Jehovah's Witness brand of carrot and stick merely makes the reward (and possible punishment) seem more IMPENDING! End Times is a big market. A very big market. But, you have to keep it alive with vitality of promises and prophecies.

    When they don't happen (1884, 1914, 1925, 1975) you just start all over again.

    Now do you get it?

    Terry

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut

    Can we agree not to mix up what the law ACTUALLY CONSISTED OF with our highly-Pauline-influenced interpretations?

    I doubt we can all agree with that. Even though it sounds simple enough, the question begs of waiting for someone (Terry in this case) to interpret the law for us. I generally agree that the law was just a simple (granted- long) set of rules and punishments. The primary punishment being death. You may also stir controversy with this statement that I believe: NOBODY, ABSOLUTELY NOBODY ever lived under the Mosaic Law Code. It was collected and written after the Jews were in bondage to Babylon. The people before that never lived under it, and the freed people never totally followed it. Throughout their history, the Jews picked and chose which "laws" to live by.

    Why would anybody agree to obey a law without penalty? The authority behind law enforcement is the power of penalty and reward.

    I don't agree at all. There have been many groups throughout history that obey the law without enforcement. People have often recognized the benefit to all people of obedience. There are people who drive below the speed limit for safety or fuel consumption or whatever. Many people don't dump garbage in a completely deserted area knowing they won't get caught, but walk the distance to the next garbage can. Even taxes, many people have agreed to pay them for the running of their government. Not all are like that, but to say "Why would anybody agree to obey...." is ridiculous.

    The blessings didn't happen!! It was all smoke and mirrors! The promises were lies! Even a dullard would figure it couldn't hurt to at least try one of the local deities instead. What did they have to lose? Jehovah's wasn't giving them anything.

    Here, I agree. Most people did try local deities or even no deities. It's only in looking back at ancient times, and being told by religious leaders, that we are misled into believing that the Jews lived by "the law."

    Jesus was only one of many such hopes that died by various ends.

    Possibly. There were many such hopes as you are leading us to realize. But Jesus may not have actually existed at all. He was highly possibly invented by the Gnostics. It is possible that the vast majority knew at the time of the writing of "the Law" that it was from men and it is possible that the vast majority knew at the time of the writing that the "gospels" were fictional stories of spirituality and morality and encouragement.

    Nothing ever happens!

    .....

    It is carrot and stick and nothing more.

    Okay, I know that much. TRUE.

  • Terry
    Terry
    Jesus was only one of many such hopes that died by various ends.
    Possibly. There were many such hopes as you are leading us to realize. But Jesus may not have actually existed at all. He was highly possibly invented by the Gnostics. It is possible that the vast majority knew at the time of the writing of "the Law" that it was from men and it is possible that the vast majority knew at the time of the writing that the "gospels" were fictional stories of spirituality and morality and encouragement.

    I too am growing more and more dubious about the "actual" Jesus.

    I think there were a great many characters (modern day Rasputins) over a stretch of time composited in the "teachings of Jesus".

    The Bible is a kind of fan fiction Wikipedia, after all, and layers of ideas are blended there.

    The interesting thing about the Bible itself is that every so often a copyist or translator tidies up the dissonances and blends the rough edges into a semi-coherence. So, another layer dovetails into "current" thinking.

    Over and over and over again.

    I think you could use the old newspaper terminology in a metaphorical sense here of "justification."

  • Terry
    Terry

    Why would anybody agree to obey a law without penalty? The authority behind law enforcement is the power of penalty and reward.
    I don't agree at all. There have been many groups throughout history that obey the law without enforcement. People have often recognized the benefit to all people of obedience. There are people who drive below the speed limit for safety or fuel consumption or whatever. Many people don't dump garbage in a completely deserted area knowing they won't get caught, but walk the distance to the next garbage can. Even taxes, many people have agreed to pay them for the running of their government. Not all are like that, but to say "Why would anybody agree to obey...." is ridiculous.

    Care to give specifics here?

    You might get a do-gooder here and there (nuts are always falling from the trees) but--laws are for a Society. Can you point to actual Societies that had non-enforced law?? Why bother creating a law in the first place?

  • moshe
    moshe

    A Jewish religion that was centered on the Temple and with animal sacrifices could never have survived. Eventually, Jewish population growth would have spread the Jews beyond the influence of the Priests and the Levites. Those distant Jews would have been unable to participate in the Temple sacrifices and human nature would have probably caused the Jews to decide that the sacrifices were a waste. Maybe, the 10% tithe to the Levites at Temple would have been hard to collect from Jews who lived a couple thousand miles from Jerusalem, too. In a perverse way, the destruction of the temple and the priesthood saved the Jewish people from the hard decision of what to do with a Temple, priests and sacrifices that don't work.

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut

    Care to give specifics here?

    You might get a do-gooder here and there (nuts are always falling from the trees) but--laws are for a Society. Can you point to actual Societies that had non-enforced law?? Why bother creating a law in the first place?

    Why would anybody agree to obey a law without penalty?

    There may have historically been some islands or isolated societies without enforcement, but it isn't what you said. You said as quoted above in blue. It can be more than an occasional do-gooder but I don't KNOW of a society without law enforcement.

    You sound so down on humans. There are many good people. Even among the societies that have law and law enforcement, I was refering to the people who obey the law knowing they won't get caught. People sit at a red light in the middle of the night in the middle of nowhere. That's not so big a deal, but I am sorry that obeying despite no consequences doesn't make the news very often. I can only state the occasional do-gooders and that isn't enough for such a pessimist.

    Just look at the good people doing good despite personal sacrifice instead of looking for the ones who simply obey the law. Look at the ones who go to Haiti and help out or who run into burning buildings to save people. Look for the positive in people. I pretty much agree with you on religion and the scams, but I try to get my mind on better things occasionally.

  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW

    It is carrot and stick and nothing more.....Terry

    Bend Over and the WBT$ will give you the Carrot..

    ................. ...OUTLAW

  • moshe
    moshe

    As a JW told me a few weeks ago, that he wasn't worried about death because he knew he would fall asleep when he died and then instantly wake up in the new system. Of course, he still wanted to cheat death and survive until Armageddon. The New system of things has been a unique WT promise for JW's for generations and yes, it is just around the corner, closer, stay close to the KH, any day now, people, just a few more hours of preaching- a few more magazine placements.

  • Halya
    Halya

    ONLY THROUGH AN ACTUAL PERSON (Messiah, king, military leader who actually does something) would the Jews be able to acquire blessings of freedom and prosperity.

    Could Mohammed be one of these actual persons who initially tried to achieve a 'Kingdom of God on earth' by peaceful means, but then realised that oppression and persecution is worse than death, and realised that human intervention was needed to create a society that was based on justice.

  • Pistoff
    Pistoff
    The Bible is a kind of fan fiction Wikipedia, after all, and layers of ideas are blended there.

    Exactly; that is why the notion of clear cut laws and sacrifices offered over centuries, let alone millenia, is FICTION, it is theolgy retrojected onto the past of the israelites to justify the priesthood in the years from 700 to 400.

    It is unrealistic to think that many poor canaanites/israelites could afford to go to Jerusalem every year, or that they ritually offered up sacrifices every time they had a wet dream.

    Paul to me was more of the same, but after noticing the very real brotherhood among followers of Jesus, and taking it for the rule of god, turns around and institutes the same power structure that Jesus rebelled against.

    Paul cares not one bit for Jesus life or teachings, not even talking about miracles, but only in his dramatic light versus darkness role in Paul's version of the eschaton. He preaches/announces Jesus only, that he is resurrected as the christ.

    Eschaton and apocalype became the saving of the followers of Jesus; they could not believe that he was dead, and so over decades came to believe it must have been planned by god and jesus, and searched for scriptures to back up their belief.

    Me, I think the real Jesus is there, but was much more of a radical socially and religiously than most christians want to admit.

    He means more to me as a rebel than as any perfect man or half man half god. The things that even skeptical scholars attribute to Jesus were subversive to the jewish and the roman system, and he paid the price.

    My 2 cents.

    P

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