is jesus a god?

by javig 304 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    I am not a trinitarian and I understand that God and Jesus are One, in John Jesus makes it clear that "He who sees me see the father".

    I am not a trinitarian and I knwo that the trinity does NOT state that Jesus is God the father, but that Jesus is "God the Son", ie: the son of God and for all intents and purposes, in regards to the NC, Jesus is God.

    All the God is, Jesus is, inseperable, total unity of purpose, Jeus can do nothing without God and God does everything through Jesus.

    If people want to label it as a "trinity" because of the role of the HS, fine, I have issues with that at all.

  • jonathan dough
    jonathan dough
    I am not a trinitarian and I knwo that the trinity does NOT state that Jesus is God the father, but that Jesus is "God the Son

    Not sure of your point or what you're responding to. Usually in the Bible reference to the Father God refers to the Triune God, not the first Person of the Trinity, i.e. God the Father. So Jesus is God the Son, who is fully God, hence, Jesus is God. Not the creature. In that sense, yes, the Trinity does not teach that God the Son (the Word, second person) is God the Father (first person), and it does not teach that Jesus, the creature, the man of the God-man of the hypostatic union, is the Almighty.

    http://www.144000.110mb.com/trinity/index.html#2

  • jonathan dough
    jonathan dough

    double post

  • javig
    javig

    To Aguest

    Hi…Again it is not Michael talking in rev 1:18…and I haven’t said yet who is talking there. You claim in rev 19:6 is jesus

    How do we know? Well, at least with reference to Christ and Michael… THEY HAVE DIFFERENT VOICES. Michael’s voice “is as of a TRUMPET” (see 1:11 and 4:1). Christ’s voice… “is as of MANY WATERS” (see 1:15 and 19:6)

    Rev 19:6 it doesn’t tell us that is Jesus speaking. Just because Jesus speak with a voice “is as of many waters” in 1:15 Im bound to think it is Jesus in 19:6? No…read the text Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting: "Hallelujah! For our Lord God Almighty reigns ….clearly the voices being heard is from that great multitude….can’t get more clear than that. It seems you are reading something into the text and context instead of letting the context speak to you…basic biblical hermeneutics plz research it…

    I know it to be Michael NOT because of what some book says, but because that is who my Lord identified it to be to me ….I know not to be Michael in rev 1:18 and 4:1 because some other book told me but because the book of revelation tell me so. The book of revelation will easily correct you on this error.

    until verse 17b… which I notice you DIDN’T address. At all ….obviously the one John sees is Jesus and he talks too john…how do we know that? Verse 12 john turns around to see that voice from verse 11…after turning around he describes the ONE with the voice from verses 12-16…after seen HIM he fell verse 17…The context clearly tell us is one person in verse 1:11 thru-20…context, context, context...what about 4:1? Same thing…is not Michael…the first voice that john heard is the same one from 1:11 and we know to be Jesus because of the description from 1:12-16.

    You asked me what is my source? The WORD OF GOD..the bible and my only source…what is your source? And what is your view

  • javig
    javig

    Regarding your gods theology AGUEST

    Christ IS immortal… and “gods” are “immortals”. Thus, Christ is a god. And I think that perhaps you are the ONLY person here who doesn’t get that very basic logic. I understand that YOU aren’t considering the word in that context, but you are in error… and SHOULD consider ALL contexts. YOU consider ALL gods to be FALSE gods. True, they are not the MOST High God… which some, including me, call the “TRUE” God. They are not Gods. ANY other God… is a false God. But they are gods… because ALL spirit beings are immortal… and all immortals are… gods. And some of us will one day be “like” them… which is why WE are called “gods” by the MOST Holy One Himself. Because WE… will be “like” the angels… SPIRIT beings… gods. Psalm 82:6; Luke 20:36

    Let me ask you …when exactly did jesus became a god?

    In order to believe jesus is a god, he would have be a creation,so who created him (gods don’t create themselves)?

    As far im concern those who creates gods are pagans, and the only one with creative power is JAH, does that make him a pagan?

    I do agree with you in the sense that all god are false and may I add.. they don’t exist. They only exist in the mind of people but not in the real sense…you said And some of us will one day be “like” them… which is why WE are called “gods” by the MOST Holy One HimselfI don’t agree….i am immortal not because I am a god or I will become a god someday….i am immortal because I am a spirit being (we humans are composed of body, soul and spirit) and my spirit lives forever…the real question is not if I will live forever or become a god, the real question is where will I spend my eternity? Hell or heaven?... and all immortals are… gods. And some of us will one day be “like” them…. NO I am immortal already but never a god and never will become one after my death. God created me as a human and I will remain human for the rest of eternity. In case you become a god look for me I would love to see you as a god. The MOST High God did not promise anyone to be a god…where is that verse? Is it psalm 82:6 or luke 20;36? I mite misread it. But let me re-read it I said, “You are gods, And all of you are children of the Most High” ok lets read 7 now “But you shall die like men, And fall like one of the princes.” uuhhmmm....u see verse seven contradict your view about a god being immortal. Verse 7 proclaims the death of gods. According to you gods are immortal or they have to die to become immortals? Where you get the idea you have to die to become a god? Psalms’ 82? Again read the whole context. The word gods is used in a figurative sense referring to men’s as judges. In this context is referring the judges of Israel and GOD is declaring punishment on them for judging wickedly. Now lets read luke 20:36 “nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection”…again read the context (luke 20:27-39) do I have to repeat my self?...you said that I am illiterate you seem to be worst than me…Again Jesus is not saying that you will become a god in luke. He is answering the question in verse 33 “whos wife does she become”…and Jesus answered none…why? After death and resurrection there will be no marraiage and procreation. Why he mention angels? To prove his point. If angels can’t procreate in the eternal state or realm or neither do we after resurrection. Angels can’t procreate at all and we will never become a god at all. You know your beliefs system are exactly the same as the mormons…they too believe they will become gods one day…are you a Mormon or a moron?

    So far what you have proclaim about yourself is

    1) Jesus is a god, 2) I one day will become a god 3) are gods or Gods are false (you will be false one day)…men/woman you are a joke...

    If you want to prove that you one day will become a god they why JAH created you as a human being in the first place? He could have created you a god in the beginning of your existence.

    Want to prove your god transformation where are those verses besides psalm and luke?

    What exactly you have to do to become a god? Born or die or something else?

    After you become a god what will be your purpose as a god?

    If you will become a god why you need forgiveness of your sins?

    Cause the devil is a god (the bible uses that word figuratively towards him) and he will never be forgiven of his sin. Are you special, are you gonna boast after your transformation and proclaim “when I was human jesus forgave my sins”? The devil is not a god, he is a fallen angel, he is eternal just like every human being, he is a spirit being and all spirit being are eternals. The fact that angels are spirits and immortals doesn’t make them gods. Jesus is more than eternal, he is not subject to eternity, he is outside of eternity, he created eternity. Jesus is immortal not because he is a god, he is immortal because GOD can’t die. The only thing that dies is our body just like Jesus body. Our body is subject to death but not our soul and spirit. And we are body, soul, spirit creatures (1 Tess. 5:23). And there is a day that my body will be immortal just like Jesus body after His resurecction.

    So far it seems that you love to take verses out of context and come with a pretext. Please don’t see passages of scriptures exclusively by themselves. See them in light of its context, in light of other passages and in the whole context of the bible…

    Let me ask you another question..are we saved by faith alone in Christ alone?

    And last but not least.... if I ever misunderstood you about your gods theology please I am all ears…however I woul like you to ask all my questions in here

    I WILL NEVER BECOME A god .....

  • javig
    javig

    to aguest

    You asked me what is my source? The WORD OF GOD..the bible and my only source…what is your source?

    And what is your view about the incarnation of jesus?...thanks

  • javig
    javig

    here is a study from a great guy

    Is Jesus God? Did Jesus Claim to be God (Part 1)

    CP1202

    IS JESUS REALLY GOD- IntroductionThe Church rests upon the person and work of a man called Jesus who is worshiped by untold millions throughout the world. Yet, controversy follows this man even today. What is the dispute surrounding Jesus Christ all about? How critical an issue is it?

    IS JESUS REALLY GOD- Who was Jesus? Never in history was there a time when the actual existence of Jesus Christ fell into serious doubt. The most common disagreement found in contemporary circles concerns not whether a person named Jesus actually lived, but rather who this Jesus really was.

    IS JESUS REALLY GOD- Human, Definitely. Divine? Jesus was the kind of a person who took people out of their comfort zones and constantly challenged their thinking — especially when He spoke about Himself and His mission. And while most people readily affirm the humanity of Jesus Christ, many are reluctant to admit His deity.

    IS JESUS REALLY GOD- Differing Opinions Consider what some groups have to say about Him. Members of such assemblies as the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, The Unification Church, and The Way International explicitly deny that Jesus is truly God. Various New Age and occult groups regard Jesus merely as an enlightened mystic. Still others revere Him as a prophet of God, but only one who stands in a long line of peers. And, of course, there are those who see Jesus as simply a great moral teacher.

    IS JESUS REALLY GOD- The Orthodox Position
    Over against all of these views is the orthodox Christian position that Jesus Christ was God in human form. And if you as a Christian can demonstrate that Jesus Christ is God, the followers of these other views would be forced to choose either their group’s teachings or the very Word of Jesus Christ Himself—one or the other, but certainly not both. During the upcoming CRI Perspectives, I intend to prove that Jesus did, in fact, claim to be God. In doing so, we hope to steer people from counterfeit Christs so that they may direct their devotion to the real Jesus ( 2 Cor. 11:3-4 ).

    I’m Hank Hanegraaff.

    part two coming soon....be there

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    JD, I was just stating that, even as a non-trinitarian, I know that they Trinity does NOT teach that Jesus is God ( The father) as some non-trinitarians claim, it teaches that Jesus is God (the son).

  • jonathan dough
    jonathan dough
    JD, I was just stating that, even as a non-trinitarian, I know that they Trinity does NOT teach that Jesus is God ( The father) as some non-trinitarians claim, it teaches that Jesus is God (the son).

    Got it.

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    Where to I begin? Well, the Spirit has led me to respond to the issues raised by Sacolton, first, since they are the briefest (f or some reason, my formatting doesn't always present as I intend, so I ask your patience). I am to respond to Chalam, next, then Lampstand, then to Javig.

    I am also to ask two (2) things: (1) that you stop here and WAIT for the responses, then respond... so as to (a) keep down confusion, and (b) give me an chance to respond to ALL (I am, after all, only one person and can type only so fast)... and (2) that you come down a little and ALSO look up the verses that I am directed to include for YOU... IN THE HEBREW/GREEK... as I have for those YOU include. This is so that you will at least have SOME idea as to where the current Bible translations got their start. If you can't do this, no worries, as the Spirit says that those who will… will… and those who won’t... won’t. So be it: we will see how this all shakes out.

    ISSUE NO 1 -

    Ecclesiastes 12:7 - and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. compare with Acts 7:9

    While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."

    Acts 7:59… okay...

    Where do spirits return?

    To GOD, the MOST Holy One of Israel… in the place that is under the alter in HIS temple (which is being built by His Son, the Greater "Solomon," Christ)… through Christ… the High Priest. Hebrews 8:1, 2

    Who does Stephen ask to receive his spirit?

    He asks Christ… the One THROUGH whom it must go in order to be received BY God. Why is this? Because Stephen’s spirit… as with the spirits of ALL those who belong to Christ… go UNDER THE ALTAR. Revelation 6:9 Where is the altar? At the entrance of the tabernacle/temple… OUTSIDE… which is, then, OUTSIDE the HOLY… and thus OUTSIDE the MOST Holy. Exodus 40:29; Hebrews 9:2

    Now, let me ask: WHY did Stephen ask CHRIST to receive his spirit? Because HE… Christ… is the One APPOINTED by GOD… as our HIGH PRIEST… so the ONLY One who could offer it up… TO God.

    Dear ones, at the time Ecclesiastes was written, GOD received the spirits of those who belonged to Him … through His priests at the time. Abel was a priest. Genesis 4:4 Noah was a priest. Genesis 8:20 Job… was a priest. Job 1:5 Abraham was a priest. Genesis 12:7 Jacob was a priest. Genesis 35:1 Moses was a priest. Exodus 17:15; 20:22, 24 Melchizedek was a priest. Genesis 14:18 And, finally, Aaron and his sons were priests. Exodus 28:1 Once the temple was constructed at Jerusalem... and UNTIL CHRIST CAME… it was the sons of Aaron, their sons, and some from the tribe Levi… who were priests to the MOST High God. But from Abel… to Zecharaiah son of Barachia... the Most Holy One of Israel had priests to “receive” ALL “offerings” to Him… whether it be the blood of goats and bulls… or the spirits of His servants. Matthew 23:35

    This is because the WAY… INTO the “temple” had not be OPENED yet. That WAY… was Christ. John 14:6 Thus, it was only an EARTHLY temple that had been constructed by Moses (the tabernacle; replaced by the temple built by Solomon)… and so the WAY into the TRUE HOLIES… the SPIRITUAL TEMPLE… had not yet been manifest. Hebrews 9:6-10 However, WHEN CHRIST CAME… “as High Priest of the GOOD things that have come… HE became the WAY… THROUGH… the GREATER and MORE PERFECT tent/temple… NOT made of hands… NOT even of this CREATION. Hebrews 9:11

    Thus, it would be to HIM that Stephen would entrust his spirit, to ensure that it indeed went UNDER the altar. Because NOW… HE is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. And he became that… prior to Stephen’s death. So, he was the WAY… for Stephen.

    C’mon, little children, you can GET this. It is elementary stuff and NOT rocket science. There was a REASON for the construction of the tabernacle/temple. It’s entire presence, including the priests and physical features… ALL REPRESENTED SOMETHING. If you understood the whole purpose of the TEMPLE… which was the ILLUSTRATION of the “things to COME”… you would get this truth, as well. Moving on…

    ISSUE NO. 2

    Here are a few others... John 2:19;John 10:17

    You should have read just a verse further, to John 10:18:

    “I have authority to surrender it and I have authority to receive it again. The commandment on this… I RECEIVEDfrom MY FATHER.”

    What did he mean by this? He had already explained at John 5:26, 27 and 30:

    “For just as the FATHER has life in HIMSELF… so HE… has GRANTED ALSO to the SON… to have life… in himself. … I cannot do a SINGLE thing… of my OWN initiative; just as I hear, I judge; and the judgment that I render is righteous because… I seek… NOT MY OWN WILL… but the will… OF HIM THAT SENT ME.”

    ISSUE NO. 3 -

    Titus 2:13
    while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ. That says it all.
    Amen, SAC.
    Even yet again at 2 Peter 1:1
    2 Peter 1-1 I, Simon Peter, am a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ. I write this to you whose experience with God is as life-changing as ours, all due to our God's straight dealing and the intervention of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ. MSG

    Unfortunately, your particular Bible version(s) have resituated the word “our” (denoted by the Greek word hemon”) which originally appeared (in the Greek, at least, because Peter’s letter was written in Aramaic) before the word “Savior.” The GREEK… from which your translation is taken, states:

    “Prosdechomai makarios elpis kai doxa epiphaneia megas theoskaihemon soter… Iesous Christos… "

    which translates as:

    “Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great Godandour Saviour… Jesus Christ...”

    and NOT “our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ”… for Titus 2:23. The same thing occurs for 2 Peter 1:1. There, the GREEK states:

    "Symeon Petros doulos kai apostolos Iesous Christos lagchano isotimos pistis hemin en dikaiosyne theoskaihemon soter… Iesous Christos…”

    which translates as:

    “Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God andour Saviour… Jesus Christ:”

    The Greek term “hemon soter” means, “our Savior…” and there is NO Greek word “hemon” before the word “theos” (“God”)… to make it "our [great] God"... in EITHER verse.

    So, why the word relocation? To support the FALSE teaching that God and Christ are one and same beings… as some are using it here.

    And that is what I received from the Holy Spirit, my Lord and Master, the HOLY One of Israel, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH, the SON... and Christ of the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies.

    Now, on to respond to the others... and I bid you all peace.

    A slave of Christ,

    SA

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