Rev. 14.4

by is there help out there 31 Replies latest jw friends

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    The "great crowd" is in heaven because it represents the Christians killed in the "great tribulation" (cf. 6:9-11, 12:11, 13:7, 15-16, 17:6). In the scenario of ch. 13, every single person who remains faithful to Jesus is put to death. The WT notion of survivors of the "great tribulation" who pass through Armageddon without dying is alien to the original scheme of Revelation. All those who don't receive the mark of the Beast are martyred by the Beast and then all those who do receive the mark are put to death by Jesus and his heavenly armies in ch. 19.

    Curiously, Rutherford's early 1930s understanding of the "great multitude" is that they are "destined to die" in the "great tribulation", but he gave this up in order to identify this group with the Jonadab class he had just created.

  • Alwayshere
    Alwayshere

    The 144,000 do not come out of the great tribulation thats why.

  • AnnOMaly
    AnnOMaly

    Great Crowd in heaven? Prove it.

    I can't give absolutes for highly symbolic language, but the problem I see, jon dough, is that the whole of John's vision takes place from the vantage point of heaven - the 'God's eye' view, as it were (Rev. 4:1,2). When he gets to the ch. 7 part of the vision, he sees 4 angels holding back the 4 (destructive) winds to prevent harm coming to the land, sea and trees UNTIL the 144,000 servants of God were sealed.

    This raises the first question: if the 144,000 were already in heaven, why were the angels holding back the winds that would harm earthly things (cf. Rev. 9:4)?

    Then John sees an innumerable great crowd standing before the (heavenly) throne and the Lamb. Likely, you'll automatically be thinking, "Of course, being 'before the throne' doesn't necessarily mean being in heaven ... " and that is a valid point when we consider the Bible as a whole. However, this context demands that, within the confines of this vision, the great crowd are where John (in vision) is, and where the angels, four living creatures and elders are (v. 11. Cp. Rev. 4:6, 10; 8:3; 14:3).

    So this raises the second question: where are the contextual indications that the great crowd is in a location other than where the angels, four living creatures and elders are?

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    jonathan....All signs are that they are located in heaven in 7:9; they are "standing before the Throne and before the Lamb" (cf. the seven spirits "before the Throne" in 1:5, the seven lamps and the sea of glass "before the Throne" in 4:5-6, the twelve elders "before the Lamb" in 5:8, etc.). They also serve God day and night "in his temple" (v. 15), which is also located "in heaven" (11:19, 14:15-17, 15:5, etc.). The dead martyrs in 6:9-11 (who also receive white robes) are also described as waiting for their vengeance in heaven ("under the altar", cf. 8:3, 9:13, 16:6-7).

    The white robes are also explicitly linked to martyrdom (6:11, 7:15, cf. 12:11), a concept possibly influenced by Daniel 11:35, 12:10. And white robes are the characteristic garb of heavenly beings (cf. Daniel 7:9, 1 Enoch 14:20, 2 Maccabees 11:8, Testament of Levi 8:2, Mark 16:5, John 20:12, Acts 1:10, Revelation 4:4, 19:14, Hermas, Vision 4.2.1).

    AnnOMaly....Yes, the 144,000 are located on earth in ch. 7, as they receive protective sealing from the plagues that God then brings upon the earth.

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut
    Great Crowd in heaven? Prove it.

    Nice answers provided already. One thing great about where I have finally gotten myself- I don't "prove it" anymore.
    I enjoy learning what people believe. I share what I believe. If challenged, I don't need to prove I am right. If you want to decide something completely different, power to you.

    I don't even accept the Bible as God's Word anymore. Why would I spend effort proving what men meant when they wrote it? You can make the Bible say anything. I just commented that Revelation is a great tool of the WTS and some of the things that can be concluded from reading it are also problems for WTS doctrine.

  • jonathan dough
    jonathan dough

    But according to Vines standing can mean standing metahorically in an approved state before God as the JWs contend, right?

    I don't even accept the Bible as God's Word anymore.

    You can't be serious. You actually fell into that trap?

  • AnnOMaly
    AnnOMaly

    But according to Vines standing can mean standing metahorically in an approved state before God as the JWs contend, right?

    Sure. But in the context of the vision, where was the great crowd standing?

    I gave this illustration on another board. Apologies for it sounding real dumbed down, but at the time it was for the benefit of someone hard of understanding.

    I'm in bed asleep. I'm dreaming. In my dream I'm standing on a tropical beach. I see the palms swaying in the breeze and feel the warm sun on my face. Hearing excited shrieks, I turn and see my grandchildren ... in reality I don't yet have grandchildren so I sense this is an idealized representation of a desired future ... I see my grandchildren splashing about in the ocean, laughing because some fishes are tickling their legs. Further in the background, I see dolphins frantically racing each other.

    Am I really on a tropical beach? No, I'm sleeping in my bed.

    In reality, where are my grandchildren? In reality, they don't exist.

    We agree so far, yes?

    But in my dream, where am I? On a tropical beach.

    In my dream, where are the fishes and dolphins? In the ocean.

    In my dream, where are my grandkids? At New York Aquarium.

    Huh?

    No that's incorrect. In my dream my grandkids are in the ocean with the fishes and dolphins.

    Applying this to Rev. 7 now:

    In vision, where is John? In heaven.

    In vision, where are the 24 elders, angels and four living creatures? They are around the throne which is in heaven (Rev. 4:2,4,6; 7:11).

    In vision, where is the great crowd? On earth.

    Huh?

    No that's incorrect. In vision, the great crowd is where the elders, angels and four living creatures are - before the throne and in front of the Lamb who is also in heaven (Rev. 7:9; 5:6).

    The point. Within the confines of the vision, there is no warrant to say the great crowd is anywhere else - just like there is no warrant to say my grandchildren are anywhere other than where my dream put them.

  • jonathan dough
    jonathan dough

    Hold on, now. The kings of the earth and military commanders are before the throne as well but they are on earth.

    The position of ‘standing’ is sometimes used in the Bible to indicate the holding of a favored or approved position in the eyes of one in whose presence the individual or group stands. (Ps 1:5; 5:5; Pr 22:29, AT; Lu 1:19). In fact, in the previous chapter of Revelation, “the kings of the earth and the top- ranking ones and the military commanders and the rich and the strong ones and every slave and every free person” are depicted as seeking to hide themselves “from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?” Re 6:15-17; compare Lu 21:36). It thus appears that the “great crowd” is formed of those persons who have been preserved during that time of wrath and who have been able to “stand” as approved by God and the Lamb. (Insight, 997).

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    JD:

    That's a very poor argument.

    1. Figurative (e.g. moral) uses of "standing before God" or similar expressions should not be equated with their use in an apocalyptic "vision" where they have a literal, spatial meaning within the frame of the vision (as "stage" actions or descriptions), even though the vision may be entirely symbolic of something else. Within the vision (or, on the stage), they are literal. AnnOMaly's dream illustration points this out nicely.

    2. There is a considerable semantic difference between the expression (actually a hebraism) used in 6:16, to hide from the face of somebody (apo [tou] prosôpou + genitive; cf. 12:14, the woman flies to the desert from the face of the serpent, 20:11, heaven and earth flee from the face of the one sitting on the throne), which implies (literally, "on the stage") increasing distance, movement away from somebody, and the static expression used in 7:9,11,15, where someone or something is or stands (or worships, bows down, etc.) before (enôpion) somebody (e.g. 1:4; 3:9; 4:5f,10; 5:8; 8:2ff; 9:13; 11:4,16; 12:4,10; 14:3; 15:4; 20:12). One means absence from while the other means presence.

  • jonathan dough
    jonathan dough

    Actually, that is the JWs' argument. I agree it is poor. I'm just looking for the strongest case against their theory in addition to what I have come up with here. How come the JWs don't take up the mantle and argue their case? Is it because they have none?

    http://144000.110mb.com/144000/i-2.html#III

    The Great Crowd of Revelation 7:9 standing before God’s throne in heaven and before the Lamb is not standing on earth in an ‘approved condition’ but in heaven contrary to the Jehovah's Witnesses teachings.

    First, Revelation 7:9 provides: “After these things I saw, and, look, a great crowd which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb ….” As with the Great Crowd, Revelation 14:1 also has the 144,000 standing in heaven with the Lamb Jesus Christ. “And I saw, and, look! The Lamb standing upon Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand.”

    The Greek verb histemi - to stand or standing - is used for both groups of individuals, but whereas the 144,000 are regarded as physically (as spiritual creatures) standing in the direct presence of the lamb in heaven, the Jehovah’s Witnesses believe the Great Crowd on the other hand are actually on earth and stand only metaphorically before God; they are standing in an approved condition, or position, in the sight of God.

    This poses the question: if the “great crowd” are persons who gain salvation and remain on earth, how could they be said to be ‘standing before God’s throne and before the Lamb’? (Re 7:9) The position of ‘standing’ is sometimes used in the Bible to indicate the holding of a favored or approved position in the eyes of one in whose presence the individual or group stands. (Ps 1:5; 5:5; Pr 22:29, AT; Lu 1:19). In fact, in the previous chapter of Revelation, “the kings of the earth and the top- ranking ones and the military commanders and the rich and the strong ones and every slave and every free person” are depicted as seeking to hide themselves “from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?” Re 6:15-17; compare Lu 21:36). It thus appears that the “great crowd” is formed of those persons who have been preserved during that time of wrath and who have been able to “stand” as approved by God and the Lamb. (Insight, 997).

    It is noteworthy that the definition of histemi (standing or to stand) does not contain the notion of a ‘favored or approved position’ or condition according to the entry for histemi or a derivative paristemi, in Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (Vine’s Greek Dictionary). And as to its application at Revelation 6:15-17, those depicted as hiding themselves are about to be destroyed, so they can hardly be said to be standing or seeking to stand in an approved condition before God. Other translations render the word “withstand.” (NAB).

    Secondly, the Great Crowd cannot be standing in an approved condition on earth because Revelation 9:1-6 details the account of the Fifth Trumpet where locusts, given the power of scorpions, are instructed to torment and harm all those on earth who did not have the “seal of God on their foreheads.”

    1 And the fifth angel blew his trumpet. And I saw a star that had fallen from heaven to the earth, and the key of the pit of the abyss was given him. 2 And he opened the pit of the abyss, and smoke ascended out of the pit as the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun was darkened, also the air, by the smoke of the pit. 3 And out of the smoke locusts came forth upon the earth; and authority was given them, the same authority as the scorpions of the earth have. 4 And they were told to harm no vegetation of the earth nor any green thing nor any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 And it was granted the [locusts], not to kill them, but that these should be tormented five months, and the torment upon them was as torment by a scorpion when it strikes a man. 6 And in those days the men will seek death but will by no means find it, and they will desire to die but death keeps fleeing from them. (Rev. 9:1-6 NWT).

    According to the Jehovah’s Witnesses only the 144,000 have the seal of God on their foreheads, not the Great Crowd or anyone else.

    2 And I saw another angel ascending from the sunrising, having a seal of [the] living God; and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:…. (Rev. 7:2-4 NWT)

    Because the torment on the Great Crowd and others is to be so great that they will seek death it is difficult to imagine that the Great Crowd is standing on earth in an approved condition before God.

    Third, one of the twenty-four elders in heaven upon seeing the Great Crowd comments “where did they come from?” (Rev. 7:13) which suggests they arrived from someplace else, namely earth.

    Fourth, the Jehovah’s Witnesses deny the Great Crowd’s presence in heaven because “Revelation does not say of them, as it does of the 144,000 that they are bought from the earth” to be with Christ on heavenly Mount Zion. Rev 14:1-3.” (Reasoning, 167) But the Jehovah’s Witnesses are reading Scripture too narrowly and assume that the Great Crowd and 144,000 are separate. If, as mentioned above, a strong argument can be made that the 144,000 and the Great Crowd are the same - a qualitative identification of that large multitude - then the Great Crowd has indeed been bought from the earth because they are the 144,000.

    Furthermore, it is not the 144,000 alone who were ransomed or bought by Jesus’ blood. The Jehovah’s Witnesses distinguish the Great Crowd from the 144,000 by the fact that the Great Crowd were of all nations, tribes, peoples and tongues. But according to Revelation 5:9 this includes the 144,000 who also are of all nations, tribes, peoples and tongues.(Reasoning, 168).

    9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.” (Rev. 5:9 NWT).

    Lastly, Revelation 7:15 makes it abundantly clear that the Great Crowd, their robes also washed by the blood of Christ, is in heaven because that is where God’s temple and his throne are; the Great Crowd is seen in His temple where they worship Him day and night.

    15 That is why they are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them. (Rev. 7:15 NWT).

    The psalmist at Psalm 11:4 tells us where God’s temple is and where his throne is, and by virtue of Revelation 7:15 we know where the Great Crowd stands worshiping the Almighty, namely, in heaven.

    “Jehovah is in his temple,
    Jehovah - in the heavens is his throne.”

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