I need some good sriptures & reasoning to refute Jesus = Michael Archangel (page 2)

androb31

"My question is:

How would the quality of our lives be improved if we discovered who Michael actually was?

Farkel"

It's not really a matter of improving one's life. For those of us who do believe the bible is the word of God and that Jesus is God it's a matter of defending the gospel we believe in. Jw's like to use it (Jesus is an Angel) as a diversionary tactic to try and stump a person defending their faith so they can make a convert. I figure it's helpful to be prepared to defend against it so as to keep a JW on point in a biblical discussion.

Also....

Not everything is about improving the quality of our life. For someone trying to help free a JW from the mind control for instance and allow them to retain their faith in God this is one topic that may open their eyes and help them realize how they've been duped. This realization could lead one to an exit from the Borg.

designs

If they get sucked into Fundamentalism it ain't much of an improvement.

One superstition replaced by a worse superstition. A cruel organization replaced by a crueler God.

androb31

"If they get sucked into Fundamentalism it ain't much of an improvement.

One superstition replaced by a worse superstition. A cruel organization replaced by a crueler God."

Faith in God = Fundamentalism..... Gotcha!!!

Farkel

androb,

:It's not really a matter of improving one's life. For those of us who do believe the bible is the word of God and that Jesus is God it's a matter of defending the gospel we believe in. Jw's like to use it (Jesus is an Angel) as a diversionary tactic to try and stump a person defending their faith so they can make a convert. I figure it's helpful to be prepared to defend against it so as to keep a JW on point in a biblical discussion.

Really? How many JWs have you or anyone else you know been convinced to leave the JW faith because someone pointed out to them that Michael was not Jesus?

:Also....

:Not everything is about improving the quality of our life. For someone trying to help free a JW from the mind control for instance and allow them to retain their faith in God this is one topic that may open their eyes and help them realize how they've been duped.

You just contradicted yourself. Are you saying the quality of your life has NOT been improved when you've been able (if you've been able) to literally save someone else's life by helping them out of a religion that is destroying it?

Geeeesssh! I wonder why I've spent thousands and thousands of hours of my time over the last dozen years doing that when I go no satisfaction at all when I do help people out? Pffllooooot!

Sarcasm aside, the quality of our lives IS improved when we do good things for others. It's selfish, but it is a good kind of selfish and quite a good thing for us, too. Anything that gives us a good feeling of satisfaction for helping others helps the quality of our own lives tremendously.

Farkel

androb31

"My question is:

How would the quality of our lives be improved if we discovered who Michael actually was?

Farkel"

"You just contradicted yourself. Are you saying the quality of your life has NOT been improved when you've been able (if you've been able) to literally save someone else's life by helping them out of a religion that is destroying it?

Geeeesssh! I wonder why I've spent thousands and thousands of hours of my time over the last dozen years doing that when I go no satisfaction at all when I do help people out? Pffllooooot!

Sarcasm aside, the quality of our lives IS improved when we do good things for others. It's selfish, but it is a good kind of selfish and quite a good thing for us, too. Anything that gives us a good feeling of satisfaction for helping others helps the quality of our own lives tremendously.

Farkel"

Cool!!! You answered your own question....

"Really? How many JWs have you or anyone else you know been convinced to leave the JW faith because someone pointed out to them that Michael was not Jesus?"

This was a contributing factor for myself coming out as well as my brother. It's made a dent in my mother's faith in the WT as well as others I know. I'm not saying it's the magic bullet but it does get someone's attention.

Farkel

:This was a contributing factor for myself coming out as well as my brother. It's made a dent in my mother's faith in the WT as well as others I know. I'm not saying it's the magic bullet but it does get someone's attention.

Interesting. Whatever works, I say. I'm still amazed that something so trivial as that would be a contributing factor for one's leaving since there are so many more SERIOUS problems with the Watchtower religion that are literally screaming in the faces of JWs that something is terribly wrong.

Then again, I've seen JWs leave over the Generation change or the UN hypocrisy when they wouldn't leave over the child rape coverups, so maybe you better carry on with what you are doing!

Farkel

androb31

"Interesting. Whatever works, I say. I'm still amazed that something so trivial as that would be a contributing factor for one's leaving since there are so many more SERIOUS problems with the Watchtower religion that are literally screaming in the faces of JWs that something is terribly wrong.

Then again, I've seen JWs leave over the Generation change or the UN hypocrisy when they wouldn't leave over the child rape coverups, so maybe you better carry on with what you are doing!"

Amen... I'm in agreement there. I think it comes down to the fact that some are naieve to the goings on with the pedophilia and Organization roots and the UN and some of those issues. I know I was. The fact that they've covered their tracks so well up until the last few years is another big red flashing light that should urge people to leave. At the time though for me, leaving came down to the question, did I have the Jesus of the bible or a different Jesus? I think this becomes a very important issue for many who take their faith in God seriously. I do realize that retaining faith in God is not for everybody who leaves the WT. To each his own. I do think we are on the same mission to help others be released from the grips of the WT though.

sacolton

Daniel 10:13 describes Michael as "one of the chief princes." This possibly indicates that there is more than one archangel, because it places Michael on the same level as the other "chief princes."

First Thessalonians 4:16 exclaims, "For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first."

Examine this scripture with this one ...

Revelation 19:11

I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war.

His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself.

He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.

Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.

On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, "Come, gather together for the great supper of God,

so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great."

Jesus will arrive sitting on a white horse WITH an archangel who is standing in the sun will shout with a loud voice.

Two separate people.

insearchoftruth

http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/164232/1/Generation-change-Michael-Jesus-wifes-bible-study

The above thread has some great information when I had asked a similar question. It is interesting that the JWs will point to the book of Jude as one of their supports for the Michael doctrine, and the book of Jude quotes the book of Enoch (which did not make it into the canon) which identifies seven archangels.

Deputy Dog

What I like to do is ask them to read from John 6 were Jesus says "I am the bread that came down from heaven"

Then I ask them, If Jesus was just a man, What came down from heaven? Because if anything came down Jesus would have to be Man and Angel. I've never really get a straight answer.

The JWs love to tell you who or what Jesus isn't, but, they don't know who or what He really is.

I need some good sriptures & reasoning to refute Jesus = Michael Archangel

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