The movie 'Doubt'

by sass_my_frass 10 Replies latest jw friends

  • sass_my_frass
    sass_my_frass

    This has probably come up before but I thought it was worth suggesting: this movie is quite intense but Meryl Streep and Philip Hoffman are just magnificent (as always), and it really portrays what members of an organisation do when confronted with abuse. The leaders of the church handle it internally, but if it's the leaders who are the perpetrators, what can be done? It doesn't even occur to the members of the organisation to go to the Police on their own; they trust the system they know. The secular justice system doesn't even exist to these people.

    I think it's good to acknowledge that no organisation stands out in this way. Early on in my exit I thought that we were special cases; different, unique, and that our experiences were completely different to those of people in other religions. They really weren't in the ways that hurt us. During my exit, my husband talked about his from the catholic church while he was a teenager. At the time I dismissed the idea internally that roughly the same things were going on in his parent's minds as mine, but I was wrong.

  • neverendingjourney
    neverendingjourney

    Meryl Streep's performance was magnificent! One of the best I've seen in years. She was very convincing as a sour, vindictive nun, yet at the same time you couldn't help but view her as a victim. I was almost moved to tears at the end when she confessed to having doubts about the Church. It reminded me of when I became aware that the "truth" wasn't really that at all.

    It's a shame she lost out to Kate Winslet at the Oscars. I saw the Reader, but Winslet's own performance in Revolutionary Road was superior. Holocaust movies always take home the trophys, it seems.

  • allelsefails
    allelsefails

    I watched Doubt a few days ago with my (JW) Family. We had an interesting discussion most of them saying they were sure Hoffman's character was guilty - and degrading the Catholic Church at the same time. I told them all - "You realize if this EXACT case, this EXACT evidence was brought up - NOTHING would be done in a JW cong. In fact the only action they would take is against Streep's character for Gossip." That pretty much ended the discussion of negatives toward the Catholics.

  • jamiebowers
    jamiebowers
    I watched Doubt a few days ago with my (JW) Family. We had an interesting discussion most of them saying they were sure Hoffman's character was guilty - and degrading the Catholic Church at the same time. I told them all - "You realize if this EXACT case, this EXACT evidence was brought up - NOTHING would be done in a JW cong. In fact the only action they would take is against Streep's character for Gossip." That pretty much ended the discussion of negatives toward the Catholics.

    Good for you!

  • JeffT
    JeffT

    I was almost moved to tears at the end when she confessed to having doubts about the Church.

    That's an interesting comment. My first contact with "Doubt" was watching the original play. The movie didn't change it much, but seeing the play we got to read the playwright's notes. She not only doubts her faith and the church, but the priest's guilt and her own role in forcing him out.

    Here's some the author's comments on the end of the play:

    Despite being presented as a parable, there is no moral conclusion or resolution to the play. We're left debating the priest's guilt.
    People want comfort, you know? And at the same time, we're sick of it, which is why I think people like the play. I'm not interested in morality. One of my larger premises in doing this play, in what's notsaid, is that doubt itself is a passionate exercise. I think it's perceived in this culture as something weak or denatured, and that's a huge mistake. Conviction is what you do to be comfortable, to write The End on thinking. Doubt keeps you in the present, it keeps you conscious and reacting to and acting on what is going on now. It's work, and people like to avoid work. http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,1041504,00.html

  • Big Tex
    Big Tex

    That's an interesting comment. My first contact with "Doubt" was watching the original play. The movie didn't change it much, but seeing the play we got to read the playwright's notes. She not only doubts her faith and the church, but the priest's guilt and her own role in forcing him out.

    Here's some the author's comments on the end of the play:

    Despite being presented as a parable, there is no moral conclusion or resolution to the play. We're left debating the priest's guilt.
    People want comfort, you know? And at the same time, we're sick of it, which is why I think people like the play. I'm not interested in morality. One of my larger premises in doing this play, in what's notsaid, is that doubt itself is a passionate exercise. I think it's perceived in this culture as something weak or denatured, and that's a huge mistake. Conviction is what you do to be comfortable, to write The End on thinking. Doubt keeps you in the present, it keeps you conscious and reacting to and acting on what is going on now. It's work, and people like to avoid work. http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,1041504,00.html

    I didn't know that Jeff -- about this being based on a true story. I wondered when watching it if that were so. I found it harder to believe such a strong accusation could be made against a priest in 1964/1965 than today.

    The whole point of the film, at least, was about doubt. There aren't supposed to be concrete answers; kind of like real life in that respect.

    I didn't believe the priest was guilty of any sort of abuse. I thought it more likely he was gay, at most, perhaps had been caught before or had confessed to some act or thought in a previous assignment. At least there were hints that might have led in that direction.

    One thing I found interesting was the head nun (forgive me I do not know Catholic terminology) was willing to bend church law for someone she was willing to protect, the elderly nun who was losing her eyesight, but to anyone and everyone else she applied the strictest letter of the law. And with the priest she went beyond that and allowed her suspicions to move her beyond church law. It's not that surprising therefore that she may have had the biggest doubts of all. I've learned that sometimes those who wrap their lives around a religion and interpret it harshly and strictly do so because they are trying to quiet their own inner demons.

    I was surprised that no one sat the boy, Donald Miller, down and asked him what was going on both at home with a physically and emotionally abusive father, as well as what may or may not have happened with the priest.

    Was anyone disgusted by the mother's attitude toward the possibility of her son being sexually abused? Something along the lines of "he can have him". I've seen that before too.

    It was a good film, but I think the actors raised the level of story that wasn't written as well as it could have been. The three central characters in particular were excellent in their performances. I do not recall the director, but he had some subtle scenes that played well (the nun opening the blinds shining bright light on the priest; or the priest sitting at the nun's desk, assuming authority only to have the nun turn the tables and she sat at the desk when the discussion turned toward the boy).

    Chris

  • JeffT
    JeffT

    The direction in the movie (like the desk thing, which I think was brilliant) followed the stage directions in the play. The big difference was the addition of the kids and a couple of scenes being outside. A lot of things (like the elderly nun's problems) were discussed by the main characters rather than shown.

    I can't put my finger on quite why, but the play left me feeling much more uncertain of the priest's guilt. My wife and I left the theater going "you just don't know." I was left with a very clear thought that he may have been driven from the previous parrish by nothing more than undounded suspicion, which was why he was so upset when he thought Meryl Streep had called the other nun, not the pastor. He then left to avoid more scandal.

    The author has stated that his main point was the danger of certainty, doubt, the act of revisiting something we think or believe, is good for us.

  • neverendingjourney
    neverendingjourney

    I wish I had seen the play. I left the movie feeling relatively certain of the priest's guilt, but it's certainly possible that I was projecting my own bias into the film. I certainly didn't pick up any doubt from the nun as to the role the priest had played. At the end she said something to the effect of "his resignation was his confession."

    A friend and I were debating this point a few weeks ago. He thought the movie was much more open-ended than I did. To me, it was more about the fallacy of judging a book by its cover. The nun appeared to be bitter and mean-spirited, but in the end she had the boy's interests in mind, even if she was moved to protect the boy more out of a desire to strictly enforce the rules than any particular interest in the boy's well-being. On the other hand, the priest appeared to be interested in the boy's welfare, but only because of his unnatural desires. In the process of ensuring that the rules were followed, the nun lost her faith in the church. Of course, this is one possible interpretation, but it looks like the movie is certainly open to various others.

  • BabaYaga
    BabaYaga

    Big Tex said:

    It's not that surprising therefore that she may have had the biggest doubts of all. I've learned that sometimes those who wrap their lives around a religion and interpret it harshly and strictly do so because they are trying to quiet their own inner demons.

    Exactly! This is so true. Methinks they doth protest too much... they cling on the hardest when they have doubts of their own.

  • sass_my_frass
    sass_my_frass

    I saw this on the news today and remembered this topic...

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/08/11/2651915.htm

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