70 years = 607?

by allelsefails 421 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  allelsefails

  70 years of captivity?

  I myself have always believed that when archaeology disagreed with the Bible the Bible must be right. That is how I dismissed the idea that Jerusalem was destroyed in 586/587 BCE. Doesn’t the bible say that the Israelites were to spend 70 years of captivity? So when you start at the destruction of Babylon in 539 BCE – A proven date by WTS standards – this puts Jerusalem’s destruction at 609 BCE. But it took them a yearand ahalf to walk home so 607.

  Is there a basis for 70 years of captivity or desolation? I understand the logical thought that “70 years” applied to the complete removal of people from Jerusalem. However the bible itself seams unclear on this point. Zechariah 1:12 indicates a period of 70 years tied to the destruction of the temple (586-516 – according to secular history). Jeremiah 25:11 shows a 70 year period associated with Babylon’s rulership over “these lands” which would include the first conquering of the region by the Babylonians (609 – 539 – according to some scholars).

  It doesn’t really matter when the 70 years begins for JW prophecy. Here is the real question: Why do they think Daniel’s “seven times” prophecy has a fulfillment beyond Nebuchadnezzer’s seven years of insanity? I can find no evidence of this in scripture. It seems to me to be a miraculous prophecy that took place exactly as Jehovah prophesied thru Daniel. This renders the whole 607 – 586 debate moot. Why add to it by using it to try to determine the length of the “gentile times”?

  Love to hear your thoughts.
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  allelsefails

  I left out something important. The only reason 607 exists inJW history is so that the "7 times" prophecy of Daniel can bring you forwrd to 1914. That is the real point. "7 times" has nothing scripturally to do with the gentile times or time of the end.
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  wobble

  If you look on older threads on this site (via the search button) you will see many interesting discussions about the 70 years,one of which convincingly points out that the scriptures that mention it seem to be talking about the servitude of the nations,including Judah,so 609bce would fit,and there is no need to pretend there was a two year sojourn for the returnees to make anything fit.

  As you rightly say there is nothing in scripture to enlarge the prophecy in Daniel beyond what it says,in the same chapter,fulfilled in the 7 times that Nebby went Wolf.

  Love

  Wobble
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  Black Sheep

  There is an interesting look at the WT view of Daniel's prophesy in Steve McRobert's book, "Falling in Truth"

  See Chapter 9

  Don't stop at chapter 9. His whole story is well worth reading.

  Cheers

  Chris
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  isaacaustin

  A JW would try to say verse 22 says:

  22 it is you, O king, because you have grown great and become strong, and your grandeur has grown great and reached to the heavens, and your rulership to the extremity of the earth.

  "extremity of the earth" has a grander fulfillment in Jehovah's rule. Somewhere else in there is also a verse that says he gives it to whomever he wishes, even the lowlliest of mankind- JWs claim htis is speaking of Jesus.
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  wobble

  Not adding to scripture then?
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  isaacaustin

  Regarding Daniel 4 it is a huge leap of logic. I would call it adding to scripture as well. This is speaking to Nebuchadnezzar:

  22 it is you, O king, because you have grown great and become strong, and your grandeur has grown great and reached to the heavens, and your rulership to the extremity of the earth.

  The JW then says "well it must have a greater fulfillment in Jehovah. This is talking about Jehovah's rule." This is certainly found nowhere in scripute but is needed to use these words any further than Nebuchadnezzar. The rest that follows is not so much adding to scripture as it is misusing scriptue, misapplying and misinterpreting as well as using false chronology. Then they run by connecting this to Luke 21 which speaks of the times of the Gentiles and come up with 7 gentile times. Jump to Revelation and see 3 and 1/2 times equals 1260 days...double that means 7 = 2520 days. They apply a day for a year used in Numbers (I think) to this and come up with 2520 years (of 360 days). They then use a false starting point of 607BCE and count forward 2520 years (unsing 365 day years) and come to 1914. Easy as pie right?
• 

  JosephMalik

  Why do they think Daniel’s "seven times" prophecy has a fulfillment beyond Nebuchadnezzer’s seven years of insanity? I can find no evidence of this in scripture. It seems to me to be a miraculous prophecy that took place exactly as Jehovah prophesied thru Daniel. This renders the whole 607 – 586 debate moot. Why add to it by using it to try to determine the length of the "gentile times"?

  Allelsefails,

  Determining the length of the gentile times is easy. How do we know? Because Jesus identified them for us in the Gospels. Where would we go to find this out? Well to the same prophecy in Matthew and Mark that Luke was writing about when he used the expression gentile times. Why then was this missed and such unsupportable dates like the WT and others applied to them? Because for some reason we cannot read or think for ourselves. And few notice that the Gospel writers did not always quote Jesus exactly but interpreted what he said for the readers. This is why they do not seem to match. But they do match in fact if we consider the audience for which such Gospels were written and they give a much different answer. I have discussed this many times on this forum but simply put Matthew, Mark, and Luke side by side and you should be able to see the answer.

  Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

  Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: 15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: 16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. 17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. 19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. 20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect’s sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

  Matt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

  The verses look somewhat different but they are all talking about the same thing and that same future and final event that some like the elect look forward to. And they all actually discuss such gentile times, how they go from bad to worse and identify their beginning. So yes, as you said: "This renders the whole 607 – 586 debate moot." The many books and articles written about such gentile times are nothing more than a distraction. Nothing like reading the wrong material to get confused and stay that way like many witnesses do.

  Joseph
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  Ultimate Reality

  The 70 years does NOT apply to Jerusalem and the temple. The 70 years applies to Babylon and is the length of time it would be the dominant world power. You can see this clearly in the prophecy of Jeremiah where he discusses how all the nations (plural) in that region would be dominated by Babylon:

  “Therefore this is what Jehovah of armies has said, ‘“For the reason that YOU did not obey my words, here I am sending and I will take all the families of the north,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “even [sending] to Neb·u·chad·rez´zar the king of Babylon, my servant, and I will bring them against this land and against its inhabitants and against all these nations round about; and I will devote them to destruction and make them an object of astonishment and something to whistle at and places devastated to time indefinite. And I will destroy out of them the sound of exultation and the sound of rejoicing, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the sound of the hand mill and the light of the lamp. And all this land must become a devastated place, an object of astonishment, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.”’ - Jeremiah 25: 8-11

  Furthermore, even the Society confirms this in their own writings! --

  “Isaiah goes on to prophesy: "It must occur in that day that Tyre must be forgotten seventy years, the same as the days of one king." (Isaiah 23:15a ) Following the destruction of the mainland city by the Babylonians, the island-city of Tyre will "be forgotten." True to the prophecy, for the duration of "one king"—the Babylonian Empire—the island-city of Tyre will not be an important financial power. Jehovah, through Jeremiah, includes Tyre among the nations that will be singled out to drink the wine of His rage. He says: "These nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years." (Jeremiah 25:8-17, 22, 27) True, the island-city of Tyre is not subject to Babylon for a full 70 years, since the Babylonian Empire falls in 539 B.C.E. Evidently, the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination—when the Babylonian royal dynasty boasts of having lifted its throne even above "the stars of God." (Isaiah 14:13) Different nations come under that domination at different times. But at the end of 70 years, that domination will crumble.” – Isaiah’s Prophecy I, p. 253

  The bible and the secular records match. The twisting of logic and scripture originates with the Society's need to maintain this flawed chronology that was developed in the 1820's. Without 607 BCE, 1914 falls as does their 1919 date of appointment as the "faithful and discreet slave". The entire authority of the organization hangs on the thread of 607 BCE.
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  wobble

  " The entire authority of the organization hangs on ......607BCE"

  Blimey,sounds as hopefull as an elephant hanging over a cliff with his balls tied to a daisy, I just think its gotta fall!

  Thanks for your explanation Ultimate Reality,its good to give this stuff a new airing.

  Love

  Wobble