Nothing has changed

by Norm 19 Replies latest jw friends

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  Norm

  Having read some of the posts in the Military tribunal thread make me wonder about the perspective of the American population in General.

  It seems to be more egocentric then ever. The understandable outrage and indignation caused by the despicable and horrible acts on 9/11 seem to have caused little or no global perspective. There seem to be extremely little interest or even curiosity as to why such an outrageous act could occur and the international implications.

  The very word terrorism has been defined and redefined and have come to include much more than ever before. One thing that has not changed is the fact that one group’s “freedom fighters” are other groups “terrorists.” I had the misfortune last week to watch the “O’Reilly factor”, where the host apparently was outraged when children was killed by suicide bombers, but was full of understanding when children was killed with helicopter gun ships. It is still quite clear to those who are looking for some kind of justice that only dead Americans and Israelis ranks as tragedies. Palestinian and Afghani civilians seem to deserve to die a violent death. Those moderate forces in the Muslim world who look for signs of any kind of reassessment regarding this strange reasoning have so far very little to show to the more extreme among them.

  There seem to be extremely little interest and will in the US and elsewhere for that matter, to discuss the underlying problems, the actual cause of the kind of terrorism we see today. This unwillingness and negligence will unfortunately cost many more lives and cause more tragedies in the years to come.

  The ongoing campaign in Afghanistan and the latest development in Israel have just made the US hundreds of thousands new fanatic enemies willing to commit whatever horrible acts against the US and US citizens. It might have brought some short term victories but I am afraid that it has made things considerably worse in the long run.

  One wonders in vain how anyone can see the wisdom in the mindless cycle of violence that has been going on in the Middle East since the nineteen forties. When are these people going to stop and realize that it simply doesn’t work? Do the Israelis really think that the problems will go away if they kill all the Palestinians in the occupied areas? Do they really think that will make their country safer? Do they think that will make the Palestinian extremists less extreme?

  It might take some time, but I fear that the US citizens will have to face terror acts far worse than the WTC horror some time in the future because as far as I can see nothing much has been done about the things that caused this act in the first place. How many more innocent civilians will have to die before those who have the power to deal with the causes act?

  Norm
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  rekless

  You said,"I can see nothing much has been done about the things that caused this act in the first place."

  what were the things that caused this act in the first place?

  Was not it hatred for us infidels, who are not worthy to live because we are not worshippers of ALLUH?

  If we the USA had hunkgered down and did nothing they would have continued to do more and more.

  We are fighting for all those of all nations that died in the WTC not just Americans.
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  expatbrit

  Islamic fundamentalists do not hate America because of what America has done. That is a mis-understanding.

  If their hatred were incurred because of what other countries did to Islam and Arabs, then Russia, who has held millions of Muslims in Chechnya under forced and unwanted rule for years, or Britain and France, with their previous records of imperialism in Muslim lands, would all be higher on the target list than America.

  America in fact, largely frustrated and put an end to the Anglo-French imperialism by humiliating them over the Suez crisis, and should therefore be less in Islam's bad books than the above countries.

  Muslim extremists do not hate America for what America has done, but for what America is. The greatest threat to their continued acquisition of power. The freedoms of America, culturally, economically, sexually; freedoms for women and non-conformists, are the antithesis of their control system. Such attitiudes spread to the Muslim world would so obviously mean their own demise.

  That is why America was the target. The cries of the muslim extremists and their Western liberal apologists are merely a smoke screen obscuring this.

  Expatbrit
• 

  roybatty

  Excellent reply expatbrit.

  I simply find it amazing that some people still think that these religious fanatics can be reasoned with. And now with this latest tape showing Ben Laden laughing and gloating about killing thousands of people just show how sick he is. This is the man that Hamas and the PLO idolize. Just as with the Nazis, there is no reasoning with them.
  And I’ve grown so sick of people complaining about Americans. The US military is being so careful with their bombing it’s ridiculous. Then we also feed them. I can’t understand what people want us and the Israelis to do???? Don’t they understand that Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Iran, Iraq and other nations simply want to wipe out Israel?
• 

  Rex B13

  Man oh man,

  I'm going to agree with Extra-brit!

  Me and you together against Norm's usual anti-American blather.

  But why is Norm so hateful of us North Americans?

  Jealousy!

  Rex
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  Stephanus

  Just another post saying that America should take it on the chin just because it's America, IMO. Totally invalid. The number of civilian casualties in this campaign are dwarfed by those of the Taliban regime, which would still have been in power today, were it not for their refusal to hand bin Laden over for trial. All that crap about how the US would be in for the long haul and made to pay dearly by the seasoned and hardened Taliban fighters - don't make me laugh! Reminds me of Idi Amin's crack troops - look how quickly that evil regime folded under external pressure!

  "You've got the brain of a four-year-old boy, and I'll bet he was glad to get rid of it."
  - Groucho Marx
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  Norm

  Wow! What insight! I frankly didn't expect you guy's to come out and prove my points in such a convincing manner. I can only hope you personally don't have to suffer in any future disaster.

  Expabrit: Among the nations you mention France is probably the western cuntry which have the best relationship with the mulsim world today even though they have a horrible history in f. ex. Algeria.

  As for Muslims hating America for what it is, I simply think it is a completely wrong assessment. Mohammed Atta, which supposedly was the leader of the terrorists lived for quite a time in Hamburg, Germany, a place far more decadent than anything you find in the US.
  Germany even has official brothels and are at least as free in every sense of the word as the US, so is France and the rest of western Europe.

  Norm.
• 

  Norm

  Rex,

  You bleated thus:

  But why is Norm so hateful of us North Americans?

  Is this some kind of good old Brooklyn residue Rex? If I make a few observations and criticise your "holy" nation, then I hate Americans?
  Didn't your God just "allow" satan to "punish" Americans for their "sinful" lifestyle? I know you don't quite subscribe to that particular insanity but you have admitted that God could have stopped it. Would I have allowed such a thing to happen if I could prevent it?
  No way! So who are the most concerned about American lives, me or your God? Do you think you are able to grasp that Rex?

  Couldn't it be that my post and criticism express concern for the Americans? Don't you know that some of my best friends live there?

  Just because you apparently find it easy to "hate" people who disagree with you Rex, never assume that others are like you.

  Norm
• 

  safe4kids

  Ah sh*t, I hate to openly expose my ignorance here but what the hell...

  Norm, I agree that we most likely will face more terrorist attacks in the future and I appreciate your concern for Americans. But isn't this what has been happening for years in many other parts of the world? Perhaps we are just now starting to catch up and no, I don't think that's a good thing but reality is often painful.

  You stated that you wish those with power would act...what specifically do you think needs to be done? How should America have reacted differently to these attacks? I really would like to hear your thoughts on the matter. I certainly don't have a clue.

  Dana

  Every new beginning comes from some other beginning's end...
  Closing Time, Semisonic
• 

  Abaddon

  I think I agree with expatbrit AND Norm.

  ... only dead Americans and Israelis ranks as tragedies. Palestinian and Afghani civilians seem to deserve to die a violent death

  Norm is straight down the line with this. If I was an Arab, I'd think the Israeli's were murdering bastards, although I wouldn't have any beef with America, other than for them SUPPORTING murdering bastards.

  Muslim extremists do not hate America for what America has done, but for what America is. The greatest threat to their continued acquisition of power. The freedoms of America, culturally, economically, sexually; freedoms for women and non-conformists, are the antithesis of their control system. Such attitiudes spread to the Muslim world would so obviously mean their own demise.

  This is also true. Ask most Arab political commentators... I've not heard one (I listen to BBC World Service all day at work and hear a lot of news) deny the cultural conflict between Islam and Westernism being a root cause.

  So we have a group of people with a worldview that is incompatable with human rights (look at the Amnesty International statement about human rights infrigements AGAINST Palestinians BY Palestinians, let alone the stuff we know about other Muslim theocracies HR record, as well as the less advanced socio-political-educational indicators of many Arab countries). Some believe they can fight by any means, the enemy, which is the West in general, the USA in particular, and atheistic, single, female University graduates, with short skirts, being the image of Satan himself. Ally McBeal is Satan... cool...

  This means 'we' think they are murdering scum, while 'they' think we are infidels.

  'Our' backing of the Israeli reigeme, who have with Western backing carried out the most sustained campaign of ethnic cleansing and aparthied since WWII, makes Arabs in general take everything we say with a pinch of salt. We haul Slobodan Milosovich off to the Hauge, and yet someone they see in the same light is Israeli PM!!

  Thus, the fanatic theocrats, scared of the West as Westernisation means they lose power (having the historical decline in the power of the CHristian church as evidence), can point their followers to our lack of action in Palestine as an example of 'Western hatered of Islam' (when it's got more to do with Jewish political lobbyists, and no, it's not a Zionist conspiracy, it's just people looking after their own like humans do), and win the arguement they want to win with the ammunition we supply them... and the $5 billion of aid Israel get from the US each year, chiefly in military aid, gives the mullahs a lot of ammunition. And as the US is ipso facto World policeman, the US gets especial blame for not sorting it out.

  Solution?

  Well, I'm tempted to build a big wall around Palestine and Israel and let them get on with it, no aid, no arms, no food. Same with Northern Ireland. But that's not morally workable, so...

  ... stop aid to Israel? Bomb the fuck out of an Israeli town if there's any violence against Arabs, and visa-versa if there's violence against Israeli's. Give the $5Billion to the UN for equal distribution to Palestinians and Israelis?

  Make education of women upto the age of 16 compulsory in any Muslim country wanting aid?

  I've got no beef against Islam, it's just not a sociologically mature religion yet... I'm not saying Christianity is 'mature', but equality, tolerance and the wrongness of religious violence are slightly more taken for granted by more adherants to Christianity than Islam. This will change over time...

  People living in glass paradigms shouldn't throw stones...