Memorial

by Borgia 10 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Borgia
    Borgia

    In the process of going from theistic hopes to atheistic life view, I had been pondering over the memorial. I wrote a few ideas down and forgot about them. Blondies comments brought some things back. One of the things I had sone was compare the 4 gospels in terms of what they had to say about the memorial. I would like to request your input of the follwing things:

    Luke has the the follwing to say:

    (Luke 22:14-34) 14 At length when the hour came, he reclined at the table, and the apostles with him. 15 And he said to them: “I have greatly desired to eat this passover with YOU before I suffer; 16 for I tell YOU, I will not eat it again until it becomes fulfilled in the kingdom of God.” 17 And, accepting a cup, he gave thanks and said: “Take this and pass it from one to the other among yourselves; 18 for I tell YOU, From now on I will not drink again from the product of the vine until the kingdom of God arrives.” 19 Also, he took a loaf, gave thanks, broke it, and gave it to them, saying: “This means my body which is to be given in YOUR behalf. Keep doing this in remembrance of me.” 20 Also, the cup in the same way after they had the evening meal, he saying: “This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood, which is to be poured out in YOUR behalf. 21 “But, look! the hand of my betrayer is with me at the table. 22 Because the Son of man is going his way according to what is marked out; all the same, woe to that man through whom he is betrayed!” 23 So they started to discuss among themselves the question of which of them would really be the one that was about to do this. 24 However, there also arose a heated dispute among them over which one of them seemed to be greatest. 25 But he said to them: “The kings of the nations lord it over them, and those having authority over them are called Benefactors. 26 YOU, though, are not to be that way. But let him that is the greatest among YOU become as the youngest, and the one acting as chief as the one ministering. 27 For which one is greater, the one reclining at the table or the one ministering? Is it not the one reclining at the table? But I am in YOUR midst as the one ministering. 28 “However, YOU are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; 29 and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 that YOU may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel. 31 “Simon, Simon, look! Satan has demanded to have YOU men to sift YOU as wheat. 32 But I have made supplication for you that your faith may not give out; and you, when once you have returned, strengthen your brothers.” 33 Then he said to him: “Lord, I am ready to go with you both into prison and into death.” 34 But he said: “I tell you, Peter, A cock will not crow today until you have three times denied knowing me.”

    If you accept Luke to have really looked deep into the matter, you have to conclude at least three things here:

    1) the new covenant is about forgiveness of sins, hence any "christian" would be part of it by neccesity. If you accept this, it would make explaining Galatians 3 etc a bit easier.

    2) the covenant for a kingdom has nothing to do with the symbols of wine and bread

    3) the covenant for a kingdom was made with jesus immediate disciples i.e. the twelf/ eleven however you want to view it.

    John however is completely silent on the matter of the memorial or even the institution of a new covenant or a tridition to remeber him by. Instead it focusses on Jesus example in order to attract believers: John 20:30,31:

    30 To be sure, Jesus performed many other signs also before the disciples, which are not written down in this scroll. 31 But these have been written down that YOU may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God, and that, because of believing, YOU may have life by means of his name.

    So, considering that the canon of the bible had not yet been established (early 2nd century and all) and I would only have in my possession the Gospel of John. Were I then able to become a believer? Gain everlasting life, yet not celebrate the memorial?

    Another issue is this:

    (1 Corinthians 11:23-26) 23 For I received from the Lord that which I also handed on to YOU, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which he was going to be handed over took a loaf 24 and, after giving thanks, he broke it and said: “This means my body which is in YOUR behalf. Keep doing this in remembrance of me.” 25 He did likewise respecting the cup also, after he had the evening meal, saying: “This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood. Keep doing this, as often as YOU drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For as often as YOU eat this loaf and drink this cup, YOU keep proclaiming the death of the Lord, until he arrives.

    What I find staggering is that neither Peter, James, John or any other apostle has written extensivley about the need for participation in or even the celebration of the memorial. Yet, in the letters atrtributed to Paul, he seems obsessed with the idea. (1Cor 5, 11, Hebr 10, etc) He claims to have received it miraculously from the Lord. Yet the ones who were allegedly there are completely silent on the matter......

    Galatians even seems to say he has a different good news than those who belonged to the chruch in Jerusalem:

    (Galatians 1:8-10) 8 However, even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to YOU as good news something beyond what we declared to YOU as good news, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said above, I also now say again, Whoever it is that is declaring to YOU as good news something beyond what YOU accepted, let him be accursed. 10 Is it, in fact, men I am now trying to persuade or God?. . .

    Trying to persuade God? Of course a rethorical question.....but why such a rethorical question. Does he seems to think that the Galatians somehow are thinking of him as.....a persuader of God with new......ideas?

    I don't know, but these are the things I found quite interesting. How would you guys comment on that?

    Cheers

    Borgia

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    If you accept Luke to have really looked deep into the matter, you have to conclude at least three things here:

    1) the new covenant is about forgiveness of sins, hence any "christian" would be part of it by necessity. If you accept this, it would make explaining Galatians 3 etc a bit easier.

    Borgia,

    The New Covenant is a bit more than that and every Christian should partake by necessity, yet: "This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood, which is to be poured out in YOUR behalf. 21 "But, look! the hand of my betrayer is with me at the table. 22 Because the Son of man is going his way according to what is marked out; all the same, woe to that man through whom he is betrayed!" The new covenant is represented by the cup and stands for the administration that will administer this new covenant. It should not be confused with baptism for the forgiveness of sins and not everyone that partakes of this cup is guaranteed such a position simply because they partake. Judas who did partake as shown by Luke would be excluded. Paul also recognized others that abused this observance and risked exclusion but acknowledged that it should be observed by all. 1 Cor 10:15 I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say. 16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? 17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. Paul now as he did in Galatians would go on to correct those still keeping the Law which did served as the means of their salvation in times past. 1 Cor 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. 30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. And as taught in Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? The answer is by hearing the faith The Law was now super-ceded by the New Covenant made with them.

    2) the covenant for a kingdom has nothing to do with the symbols of wine and bread

    It has already been shown that it does. You show where Luke also said: 29 and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 that YOU may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel. And this was extended to all those that partook as shown by Paul. They as well as we are partakers of the same bread.

    3) the covenant for a kingdom was made with Jesus immediate disciples i.e. the twelve/ eleven however you want to view it.

    There were 12 present as Luke taught. True. And it being made by only the twelve present did not exclude the many disciples that existed or would come afterward. After all there was not room enough for everyone to fit in the upper room at the time. This is why: Re 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. The 12 were only the foundation upon which the walls would be supported.

    You also said: John however is completely silent on the matter of the memorial or even the institution of a new covenant or a tradition to remember him by. Instead it focuses on Jesus example in order to attract believers: John 20:30,31:

    John did not bother with repeating that which was adequately covered by others such as the passing of the cup that represented the New Covenant as his Gospel consisted mostly of fills including 4 or 5 entire chapters about this evening’s events not found in the others. That John was well aware of it and its details is shown by the way he introduced it: 13:1 Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end. 2 And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, to betray him; He skipped the required meal which included the New Covenant and jumped to the foot washing that followed it to settle the arguments that disrupted it that evening.

    Joseph

  • Finally-Free
    Finally-Free

    This is straying somewhat but I've wondered about this a number of times:

    17 And, accepting a cup, he gave thanks and said: “Take this and pass it from one to the other among yourselves; 18 for I tell YOU, From now on I will not drink again from the product of the vine until the kingdom of God arrives.”

    Didn't Jesus accept a drink from a sponge while being crucified?

    W

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    W

    Mr 15:23 And they gave him to drink wine mingled with myrrh: but he received it not.

    Joseph

  • Meeting Junkie No More
    Meeting Junkie No More

    Good questions. I am having quite the difficulty with the Memorial myself this year...really don't want to go; probably have to on account of family still in...

    Anyhow, recently discovered that the bread and the wine thing goes back all the way to Melchizedek - Genesis 14:17-19...

    So my questions is: Did this whole institution of a "Lord's Evening Meal" even take place, or this just written into the so-called New Testament to 'fulfill' Old Testament ramblings? Remember the Gospels were written AFTER Paul's letters; most likely after the destruction of Jerusalem. Methinks that perhaps the new "Christian" group were desperately trying to make sense of the reason for the destruction of the Jewish conglomerate and God's apparent rejection of its entire system - and so there had to be institution of a different covenant - bread and wine again the SYMBOL....

    My 2c

    Will probably HAVE TO sit through the charade....UGH!

  • out4good3
    out4good3

    Shudder!!!!!

    my wife is beginning toask me to go with her to more and more witness gatherings......

    I'm trying not to shut her down!!!

  • StAnn
    StAnn

    Borgia, et al, I would recommend that you read the Ante-Nicene Fathers. Their writings discuss the beliefs and practices of the very first christians. Just read things from the first, say, 200 years, and see what they have to say.

    A good one is Justin Martyr. Another good one is Polycarp. Polycarp was taught directly by St. John.

    StAnn

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    So my questions is: Did this whole institution of a "Lord's Evening Meal" even take place, or this just written into the so-called New Testament to 'fulfill' Old Testament ramblings?

    M2c

    It took place alright, but not the way the Watchtower teaches. Passover is the Festival of Unleavened Cakes, as it came to be know and renamed by then. It is a festival of 7 days during which our Lord was imprisoned and executed. It is representative of the time it took for the Jews to leave Egypt and escape to freedom through the parting of the waters that drowned the Egyptian army chasing them. And there is more to the story but you will never hear the truth of it at any Watchtower meeting.

    Joseph

  • WTWizard
    WTWizard

    The whole thing is a waste of time. You hear about the event for 12 minutes, and then they waste 13 minutes telling you who is not to partake (the majority of the audience). After that, they pass it and everyone rejects it (and hence Jesus). After that, there is a hounding call to get everyone there to go to all the boasting sessions. Anyone that's there for the first time is supposed to make arrangements for a Washtowel study; inactives will be hounded to keep going back for more.

    If I am going to reject Jesus, I might as well do it at home instead of wasting the time going to the Kingdumb Hell and risk getting hosted and not being able to leave again.

  • Haelcer
    Haelcer

    Date April 9 is OK?

    Look at this:

    April

    2009

    8 Wed: 14. Nisan 5769
    9 Thu: 15. Nisan 5769

    from: http://www.calendar.sk/jewish_calendar-en.php

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