Should women be allowed to have 14 kids without job?

by sammielee24 280 Replies latest jw friends

  • cognizant dissident
    cognizant dissident

    The title should be kept in context. The question was about the ethics around the rights of an individual to continue to have children without first having the independent resources to provide for them - and specifically in cases like this where there is no natural pregnancy ie: a person who seeks to become pregnant by artificial means and then makes a determination to act on their wishes regardless of their ability to provide for the results of that pregnancy.

    Sammie you raise a number of questions and I do believe asking questions is a good thing. There is a difference in asking questions and making angry judgements, replete with name calling, without having all the facts, which is what many posters are doing. When some of us asked valid logical questions the anger was then turned on to us. However, I will ask them again anyway.

    The question is not whether or not she is married. The question isn't related to religious values. It's a question put up against societal values and the value of life in regards to the majority and not the minority.

    You cannot totally separate societal values from religious values while the vast majority of members of society base their individual values on their religious values. Also there is certainly no societal consensus on any values which is the reason this thread even exists.You may all be surprised to know that I do not personally believe it is a good idea for children to be intentionally brought into this world by parents who cannot afford them or that children should intentionally be raised without fathers. Those are my beliefs based upon my values. Many others may not agree. My question is WHO gets to decide how many children other couples or other single mothers may have? Me? You? Why? Based upon the potential for harm? Potential for harm is not actual harm. If it is to be put to majority vote, and agreed that all should have only two children and poor people and single women no children, then that only raises a hundred more questions that absolutely no one has attempted to address. How do we enforce the two child rule? How do we police sex and reproduction? What do we do with the lawbreakers? Do we sterilize those who are not allowed to have children? Do we force abortions on single mothers? Do we take away the children of poor people after they are born? These questions must be answered before we can even attempt to answer the question you raised in your thread. Are any of the angry posters willing to stop the name-calling and wild speculation about one individual woman's circumstances and seriously try to address the actual logistics raised?

    This woman was on disability for a back problem and yet purposely got herself pregnant 6 times while on funds for that. It does raise questions and for those on disability who have to fight for any help, I can assure you they are cringing and angry. So should society have a say in women being ALLOWED to have 14 children without a job and while on government disability funding or other government funds? Most certainly since those programs are set up and paid for collectively by society to assist those who need it. sammieswife.

    More questions: Should disabled people be allowed to have children? What does the extent of the disability need to be before they are not allowed to have children. How do you propose to stop those who want to? When disabled people receive a settlement for their disabilities whether private or publicly sourced, should they be able to spend the money how they want as everyone else is? Why should they be told they cannot spend their disability settlements on children? You see many of the questions raised are totally separate issues with no easy answers. As BTS said, the cure many are proposing sounds dreadfully worse than the disease it is supposed to help.

  • cameo-d
    cameo-d

    "She told me that all of her kids were through in vitro, and I said 'Gosh, how can you afford that and go to school at the same time?"' she added. "And she said it's because she got paid for it."

    My first question is WHO paid her to do this? Perhaps this was a politically motivated agenda to cause an issue so that the green party could come forth and make new laws and statutes concerning population control and determining who will be allowed to even have children in the future. Perhaps everyone will be subjected to genetic screening and financial scrutinty in the near future.

    where is the doctor's responsibility in all this?

    What about "first do no harm"?

    Wouldn't this also imply a moral responsibility in his actions?

    I think since "technically" the doctor impregnated her, that he should be responsible for the raising of this litter. That might teach him some moral responsibility and ethics.

  • beksbks
    beksbks

    The whole point of this thread is the fact the woman has no visible means of support. Or at least "had" none before all the hoopla. The actual question is how much freedom is allowed YOU before you are infringing on MY rights. It is the same question on nearly every political or current events thread here. At what point do your rights interfere with mine, or society's in general.

  • BizzyBee
    BizzyBee
    Plus, it looks like she's "had work done." Some lip enhancement and a nose job. This may point to some vanity/selfishness issues. Maybe she knew she would be in the national spot light.....

    Yes, she's an attractive girl, but it looks like she's had lips and nose work done. Kind of young for that. I don't really think anyone cares, except that it would seem that sooner, rather than later, the taxed taxpayers of California will be paying for this young woman's misdirected delusions. At what point do we, as a society, draw the line? Certainly if she can pay for all this, it is her business. But let's not be naive.

  • BizzyBee
    BizzyBee

    Now that we have such extraordinary capabilities to create artificial realities, medical ethics must step up to the plate.

  • purplesofa
    purplesofa

    California Medical Board probes octuplet birth

      LOS ANGELES – The fertility doctor who helped a California woman have 14 children, including octuplets born last month, is now facing a state investigation on top of harsh criticism from medical ethicists.

      The Medical Board of California did not identify the doctor who helped Nadya Suleman, 33, of Whittier, become pregnant with the six boys and two girls born on Jan. 26. Suleman has six other children.

      "We're looking into the matter to see if we can substantiate if there was a violation of the standard of care," board spokeswoman Candis Cohen said Friday. She did not elaborate.

      Suleman, a divorced single mother, told NBC's "Today" show that the same fertility specialist provided in vitro fertilization for all 14 children using sperm donated by a friend.

      In the interview broadcast Friday, Suleman also said six embryos were implanted for each of her pregnancies. In her latest, two of Suleman's embryos split, resulting in two sets of twins among the octuplets.

      When asked why so many embryos were implanted, Suleman said: "Those are my children, and that's what was available and I used them. So, I took a risk. It's a gamble. It always is."

      In the United States, there is no law dictating the number of embryos that can be placed in a mother's womb. Doctors say the norm is to implant two or three embryos, at most, in women Suleman's age.

      "The revelation about one center treating her makes the treatment even harder to understand," said Arthur Caplan , bioethics chairman at the University of Pennsylvania . "They went ahead when she had six kids, knowing that she was a single mom ... and put embryos into her anyway."

      Suleman's infants were born prematurely and are expected to remain in the hospital for several more weeks. Her six other children are between ages 2 and 7.

      Suleman said she had never been on welfare and would find a way to get by with the help of family, friends and her church. She said she planned to return to school in the fall.

      The births have raised questions about how the woman will be able to care for all of her children. Los Angeles County child welfare spokesman Stu Riskin said the agency doesn't respond unless there has been a complaint, and such complaints are confidential.

      "All I wanted was children. I wanted to be a mom. That's all I ever wanted in my life," Suleman said in the portion of the interview that aired Friday. "I love my children."

      She said she struggled for seven years before finally giving birth to her first child.

      According to state documents, Suleman told a doctor she had three miscarriages. Another doctor disputed that number, saying she had two ectopic pregnancies, a dangerous condition in which a fertilized egg implants somewhere other than in the uterus.

      The state documents describe Suleman becoming pregnant with her first child after a 1999 injury during a riot at a state mental hospital where she worked. Suleman feared she would lose the child and sunk into an intense depression, according to a psychological evaluation in her workers' compensation case .

      "When you have a history of miscarriages, you think it will take a miracle," she told Dr. Dennis Nehamen. "I just wanted to die. I suspected I was pregnant but I thought, 'That's ridiculous.'"

      But the 2001 birth of the baby "helped my spirits," Suleman said.

      More than 300 pages of documents were disclosed to The Associated Press following a public records request to the state Division of Workers' Compensation . Among other things, they reveal that Suleman collected more than $165,000 in disability payments between 2002 and 2008 for the work injury, which she said left her in near-constant pain and helped end her marriage.

    • cognizant dissident
      cognizant dissident

      Thanks for putting that article up Purps.

      So, to recap:

      • No laws have been broken
      • No welfare payments have been received to look after any children
      • No children have been abused or harmed
      • No children have been neglected as of yet.
      • Normal medical procedures were not followed but mother and doctor both agreed to take the risk and both mother and all children survived.

      I still don't see what all the anger and fuss is about. Nobody has been harmed by what this woman did. Nobody's rights have been infringed by what this woman and her doctor did, least of all the rights of any posters on this thread. No harm, no foul, in my opinion.

    • beksbks
      beksbks
      I still don't see what all the anger and fuss is about

      Geez Cog, has there really been "all the anger and fuss"? Seems more like opinion and discussion to me.

    • llbh
      llbh

      Beks, there has been discussion here by some, rudeness displayed by others, that is why CD is calling it as is.

      I have been patronised, which is all part what happens on a discussion forum, however some have been quite vituperative in their comments to others.

      My literary allusion with regards to Sophocles seems so have been missed by many posters. The Greeks raised these question over two millennia ago.

      BTW the last person i heard calling someone a poo poo head, was about 4 years old, until now that is.

      Regards David

    • beksbks
      beksbks

      Hehe I missed the poo poo!!!

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