question on atheism vs. god

by bonnzo 40 Replies latest jw friends

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  jws

  there may or may not be any sort of afterlife and we may never know, even in death.

  What kind of afterlife would we not find out about upon death?

  If you die, and you fail to learn or experiencing anything ever again, then there is no "afterlife", by definition. (for you who died, at least.)

  What I meant was, we may or may never know about an afterlife during life, and only if there's something more will we know about it in death. If somebody appears from beyond (be it God, an angel, or somebody who has died) and says "here's what's going to happen...", then the living will know.

  If there is no afterlife, we will not know in death. If there is, we may or may not find out about it - depending on whether there's some choosing process. If we're not chosen, we die and never know about it. So, we may not know even in death.

  I'm not saying there's an afterlife. But for the sake of argument, who's to say death is the end? Death is a word humans have defined to describe a specific state of being. And as we understand it and have defined it, it is the end. Just because we've set aside a word and assigned a meaning to it doesn't mean our understanding is correct.

  The motherboard on my computer can crash and "die", but I might be able to transplant the hard-drive into an identical PC and viola! It "lives" again as it did before.

  All we are, our memories, our thoughts, our hopes and dreams are in a collection of wiring in our brains. Who's to say that can't be recreated and replicated? Who's to say that a computer couldn't someday replicate the functions of the brain? Or that that a human clone's brain may be molded to duplicate ours?

  If our thoughts can live on beyond our bodies, would that be life after death?

  IF there is some all-powerful being, who knows what powers of science are available in his toolbox?

  Now the next question is why would something so intelligent want a collection of so many of us hanging around forever? I think I'd want the most intelligent ones if at all. At least you can have intelligent conversation. Maybe show them the wonders of the universe and know that they can comprehend and appreciate what was created.

  Unfortunately, if you believe what religion has to say about it, God's only going to take the most loyal to an afterlife. And the most loyal, well, let's just say that some of them don't exactly dwell on the wonders of the universe. Or science at all.

  Let's face it, a lot of not-so-bright people are religious. Maybe devoutly so. But can you stand to be in a room trying to have a conversation with them for very long? Imagine the room filled with them - FOREVER.
• 

  gymbob

  Abbagail~

  That was an interesting reply to my comment, and I can respect your view and beliefs. However, why do you say I don't want to worship God? Why would anyone in their right mind not want to have a relationship with the creator? The problem is....God.

  For years I've tried talking to him, but he never responds. He has never started a conversation, I have to start every one. Plus, since he is invisible and doesn't talk, that makes it even harder to believe in him. Why has he made it so hard?

  Frankly, I'm just tired of trying to worship someone who has created a situation that makes it impossible to believe. I'll be here if, and when he comes out of hiding, but don't tell me that I don't want to worship God. Gymbob
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  Seeker4

  Vinny wrote: "I have debated this thing a thousand times with atheists now on many places. My beliefs are based on thorough examinations and an honest look at facts and evidence as they are."
  
  Considering the total LACK of facts and evidence supporting the existence of the biblical god, it's hard to imagine what your thousand debates consisted of. I agree with Gymbob. I wouldn't have any trouble believing a god existed - except for his total abscence in any tangible way from anything in modern existence. He never talks, never answers prayers, never shows himself, never provides any real evidence that he exists.
  
  Abbagail - gotta say there is also not a shred of evidence for anything you wrote about your god. The "god" of the Bible is a monster, a dysfunctional psychopath.
  
  My six year old grandson can easily prove his existence, but an all powerful god can't? Utter bullshit. God could reveal his existence in an instant.
  
  Why hasn't he? Because he simply doesn't exist. God is an idea in the minds of men - and not a very good one.
  
  Sorry for all the emphasis on the masculine there - just doing it for convenience. God can't reveal HERSELF either, 'cause she also doesn't exist!
  
  S4
• 

  Vinny

  Hey Seeker, I said there is "A God". Did you see that?
  
  Where did I say the bible God, IS God? Because I never said that.
  
  Maybe try reading with glasses next time. You must be getting old...
  
  Seeker believes there is no God, Vinny believes there is a God. So we agree to disagree. Right?
  
  Or should I get my trouncing boots out? You've seen them before Seeker and ran away. Remember that?
  
  
  Vinny
• 

  inkling

  I'll be here if, and when he comes out of hiding, but don't tell me that I don't want to worship God.

  This is a really good point, and reminds me of something Abbagail said in another thread...

  But as a "consolation" for the atheists (and/or God haters....

  An atheist god-hater? Seriously? This seems quite the category mistake.
  How can you hate something that (you sincerely think) doesn't exist?

  I'm not being willfully faithless. Belief is not a choice; I'm either am
  convinced of something or I am not. Why are Agnostics and Atheists
  criticized as if they have are having a spat with god, and refusing to
  make eye contact all the while saying "you don't exist, la-la-la"

  Is that seriously what Abbagail thinks atheists are doing?

  I know some Atheists who wish it WERE true that there was a god and
  an afterlife. What is stopping god from revealing himself to them?

  [inkling]
• 

  rebel8

  IMO there is a much better, much easier way to figure things out.
  
  First, start with what we know for sure: There is an Earth, there is a universe, there is life, etc. Evolution is a scientific fact too; things change and develop with time. (This does not necessarily explain the origin of life, just its development.)
  
  Move on to the things we think are true, because there is objective evidence to believe them.
  
  Now you have a basis for deciding what to believe about everything else.
  
  This method is great for erasing all the remnants of religious myth in your brain.
• 

  Gladring

  Belief is not a choice

  RAmen to that brother Ink!
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  gymbob

  Even if there was a creator, that still doesn't mean that he/she/it wants to be worshipped, or is worthy of our worship. It also doesn't mean that this creator can hear prayers, or even gives a rat's ass about us here on this speck of a speck planet, in this speck of a speck solar system, in this speck of a speck galaxy. Gymbob
• 

  jws

  Here's a God that wants to be worshiped. DEMANDS to be worshiped. Yet leaves it kind of vague as to whether he really exists and what he really wants.

  Here is a God who supposedly built everything from the tiniest microorganisms to the largest planets in our solar system. Who hears all of our prayers and answers many of them.

  Yet with all this power, he allows all of these religions to pop up, each with different concepts of God or what God wants. If he (or she) wants and needs worship so badly, why not appear and make it real clear that God exists and what God wants of us? If God has a need to have adoring fans, that would do it. That would convert a whole lot of people.

  Right now, it's like a game - at least in the Christian religion. Guess what God wants? Is there a hell? Is Jesus God? Is there a Trinity? Is God forgiving or strict and punishing? What does God consider sin in today's world? Does he care about sin or only that you believe Jesus came back to life?

  And it's not that there aren't plenty of people willing to play the game and search for and know the answers. It's that there are hundreds of variations. And for the most part, whatever you learn first is probably what you'll believe.

  The JWs talk about the odds against evolution. But what are the odds that an intelligent being created it all then acts the way he does? If there was intelligence, the facts seem to be that after creation, God walked away. Left to our own devices, we created God the way we wanted him to be.
• 

  Sad emo

  one that really bothers me about deism is the thought that god has always existed and always will, had no beginning and no end.

  Think - when was 'the' beginning? when is 'the' end?

  Talking with pubsinger once, he suggested that as a JW, its hard to get your head around the question you pose because the word 'eternal' is avoided (it is translated as 'time immemorial' in the NWT) - therefore, a JW will automatically have the concept that eternal = 'a very, very, very long time'. In reality though, eternal does not strictly mean that - it means without a beginning or end - it is not measureable by current scientific methods. In effect, 'eternity' - and God - is outside the human 'timeframe'.

  We live in eternity - when did this very moment begin? When does it end?

  Perhaps the same with God - in the same moment, every moment of every day, He both begins and ends - eternal is very big and very small all at the same time.