NWT Revelation 5:10 Rule on the earth or over the earth? (page 2)

possible-san

Hi, oompa.

and her avatar is hot!...

Yea. You are right.

And your avatar is cool!...
What picture is it?
A movie or something?

possible
http://bb2.atbb.jp/possible/

possible-san

Hi, digderidoo.

Thank you for the topic.

I have described the Greek preposition "epi" also in my forum.
http://bb2.atbb.jp/possible/viewtopic.php?t=20

However, there were few participants and that topic did not liven up.

Mary

Joseph Malik said: You are asking to look up around 790 verses where epi appears. And in such verses it is translated as "in", "time," "to," "upon," "by," "unto," "as," "at," "before," and who knows what else and that is just in the first 10 chapters of Matthew in the AV. There is no question that such examples exist.

OK, thanks Joseph.

JosephMalik

Mary,

That's ok. Would not mind doing it if it really mattered. But this one could take a lot of time for very little if any gain. Comparing translations is much simpler and you get better support.

Joseph

P.S. There are other verses using other words where this does matter a great deal and comparinig translations will not help much. Verses like Heb 1:3 or 1 Tim 1:17. A search such as you have suggested can be a real help.

Joseph

isaacaustin

for my own clarification I wanted to confirm that the Greek word "Epi" is not used to indicate spatial or physical location. The Greek word "huber" would be the word in this scenario?

"Epi" means over in the sense we can say George Bush rules over America, correct? "Huber" means over in the sense of a physical location or spatial relationship- such as a physical object laying over, or on top of something, correct?

possible-san

The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures

This is a diagram which showed the Greek prepositions.

The Greek preposition "epi" means "upon" literal,
and it shows that it is in contact with the target thing, or shows the position near it.

possible
http://bb2.atbb.jp/possible/

possible-san

alt

http://www2.biglobe.ne.jp/~remnant/shumatsu08.htm

The upper picture is in the website of the Protestant publication group in Japan.

That is, "terrestrial heaven" (heaven on earth) is meant.

Leolaia

"Epi" means over in the sense we can say George Bush rules over America, correct? "Huber" means over in the sense of a physical location or spatial relationship- such as a physical object laying over, or on top of something, correct?

You got it. The first is epi used non-spatially with the genitive to indicate subordination. The second is huper used spatially to indicate a location "over" another entity. Two distinct semantic relations that are indicated by separate words in Greek. In English however we use the same word "over" to express both concepts. Hence, the Society misconstrues the Greek on the basis of English.

Mary....The case forms of the noun following epi is the key to understanding which sense is appropriate. The epi + genitive usually has a spatial sense of "on, upon" (as does epi + accusative, as in Revelation 11:11), but it could also be used as a genitive of subordination or as a genitive of time (e.g. "during" as in Jude 18). The dative case forms however can be used in many different ways (including location and instrument), such that epi + dative can be used as a dative of indirect object (e.g. "to" in Acts 5:35), a dative of reference ("concerning" in Acts 11:19), dative of place ("at" in Revelation 9:14), dative of time (e.g. "during" in Ephesians 4:16), dative of sphere (e.g. "in" in Acts 2:26), and a dative of cause ("because of" in Acts 20:38). As in the above case, it is important not to be misled by English translation equivalents, such that the dative of sphere is not confused with a purely locative "in", and so forth.

isaacaustin

Epi + genitive can mean spatial or subordination? I am a bit confused here? Am I misunderstanding something? Sorry to be a pain.

Leolaia

No, you're not missing anything. It can be either spatial ("on, upon", NOT "over" as a location above another) or non-spatial ("over" as a relation of power). As I said in my first post to this thread, the expression is ambiguous -- it could mean either or both. As I pointed out, both "on, upon" or "over" as subordination are valid in translation -- although the latter is probably more likely than the former because the verb "to reign" specifically introduces a relation of power, such that it is more natural to understand epi as "over" in this context. That doesn't make the alternative wrong, as BOTH are technically valid. What is not valid is interpreting the expession as itself indicating a location of the rulers "in heaven" (spatially "over" the earth).

NWT Revelation 5:10 Rule on the earth or over the earth?

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