Christians: I would like an answer, please.

by changeling 120 Replies latest jw friends

  • John Doe
    John Doe

    Burns professes to be Catholic. I pointed out the teachings of the Catholic church. It stands to reason that he believes what his church of choice teaches as truth. If not, what is he doing there? If his priest knew that he was wishy washy on the hell thingy he'd send him to say a few hail Mary's or something.

    I don't see how you can have it both ways, join mainstream christianity but make up your own rules.

    I had a good friend who was Catholic who didn't believe in a literal hell or in transubstantiation. I don't think this is uncommon. You don't have to subscribe to every belief of a faith in order to believe in the purpose of the faith or the gist of the faith.

    I personally have little respect for religion these days.

  • Rapunzel
    Rapunzel

    Changling: I just want to point out that all of the major religions - such Christianity; Islam; Judaism; and Hinduism - all contain a "strain" or a "thread" of thought that is usually labeled as "materialist." Moreover, it is also often assigned the epithet "heretical," and is often surpressed.

    Materialism is an ancient mode of thought, and can be found in all the "Classical" civilizations. For example, in the Indian civilization, the materialist doctrine, Lokayata, was in "full bloom" in the seventh century B.C.E. In classical Greek thought, the philosophies of Democritus and Heraclitus are usually termed "materialist."

    It basically all comes down to this question: Do humans possess any sort of "spirit" or "soul" that persists or continues on after the death of the body? The materialist response [in all traditions, throughout the world] is a resounding "No!" According to materialist doctrine, the human "spirit" or "soul" perishes at the time of death of the human organism."

    I should emphasize that philosophical materialism is an ancient idea, found in all cultures and religions. As I pointed out in a previous post, Judaic materialism is especially prevalent in Ecclesiastes where the writer says outright that there is no life after death. This makes him the "odd man out" in the Bible, but any honest reader will at least have to "engage" him and ponder what it is that he has to say.

    Although materialism often accompanies atheism; they are not necessarily the same idea. Whereas, I suppose, that most atheists would espouse materialism, not all materialists are necessarily atheists [although many are.] The reason for this is because the question of whether or not the human soul survives death is quite different from the question of whether God exists [or gods exist]. The two questions are totally independent of each other.

    Materialsm is often associated with the philosophical poition of doubt. Again, the two are not synonomous or co-equal, but materialsm will often lead to skepticism. Doubt is NOT the shadow, or "poor sister," of belief. Doubt and skepticism are not mere reactions against belief. Doubt is sufficient unto itself. It has its own methods and its own theories. Doubt need not exist in antagonistic relationship to belief. In fact, sometimes doubt can butress and fortify belief.

    I am currently reading a book entitiled Doubt - A History, by Jennifer M. Hecht. In her book, she traces the development of skepticism as it is usually accompanied my materialist thinking. I was shocked to read about such an ancient lineage. It seems like the older the religious tradition, the older the materialst tradition that deneid it. It astounding to read that thousands and thousands of years ago, there were people who scoffed at the foundational concepts of Hinduism such as reincarnation and karma. These people, called the Carvaka, claimed that those who believed in the afterlife were fools and simpletons. And these Caravaka were not the only one, or the first.

    It seems that every major religion is based on the foundational premise that there exists some supramaterial, immortal soul, and that this "soul" is to face either reward or punishment in the afterworld. What surprised me is that there have always been people - in all religious traditions - who have offered rationalist proofs denying the very existence of this "immortal soul." These people have always been there. They have often been in the background, due to suppression by the orthodoxy of their respective religious traditions. More often than not, scholars know about them only through the writings of their enemies, those who denounced them. This is an irony that often occurs in history. There will be a group or a "school" of thought, none of whose original writing survive, due usually to the fact that they were burned ["they referring basically to the writings, but sometimes to the people who wrote them]. Their writings survive only as incorporations into the counter-writings of their enemies. It was often the case that the orthodoxy of the various religious traditions would copy copiously the writings of materialists.

  • Robdar
    Robdar
    BFD: I'm one step above you. I worship the god of Sunday brunch!

    I worship at Saint Mattress, Our Lady of Sealy Posturepedic

    And really, Changeling, there are other denominations besides JW's that do not believe in hell. Why even the American Russian Orthodox do not believe hell is a literal place. You really are behind the times when it comes to Christianity.

    ~smooches~

    Robyn

  • BFD
    BFD

    Changeling, I can't wait to meet you over the alter of brunch one day. I love Ashville.

    BFD

  • changeling
    changeling

    It's a date BFD!

  • changeling
    changeling

    And rapunzel...I'd have to say I subscribe to both.

    changeling :)

  • stilin4now
  • stilin4now
  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips
    Burns professes to be Catholic. I pointed out the teachings of the Catholic church.

    No you didn't, I did, I actually pasted the teaching verbatim on the first page of this thread--which you completely ignored. The soul has two final destinations, with God, and without God. To be with God is heaven, to be without God is hell. Even in this life we can receive flickers of the ecstacy or shadows of the darkness.

    It stands to reason that he believes what his church of choice teaches as truth. If not, what is he doing there?

    Being a Catholic is not like being a JW, there is a wide variety of things that I can be at variance with and still be a good Catholic. I am not a Catholic yet, but am scrutinizing that faith. It is a beautiful place with many ways to worship and serve. There is history, tradition, great scholarship, and the examples of many Saints throughout history. It just so happens that I do not believe hellfire is literal, but a metaphor for the suffering of those who separate themselves from God. Hell is the state of those that spend eternity without God. A great many Catholics believe this and it is mentioned in the entry on hell that I pasted in above, the one you didn't read. It isn't a question of having it both ways, other faiths do not demand total submission to every detail of dogma like the JWs. To be a Catholic, I basically have to believe the Nicene Creed and the Apostolic creed and that is it for me to be baptized, which I hope to do next year.

    BTS

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips

    Burns professes to be Catholic. I pointed out the teachings of the Catholic church. It stands to reason that he believes what his church of choice teaches as truth. If not, what is he doing there? If his priest knew that he was wishy washy on the hell thingy he'd send him to say a few hail Mary's or something.

    I don't see how you can have it both ways, join mainstream christianity but make up your own rules.

    At least you have your own brand of religion, caliber.

    This is an interesting and unexpected turn to this thread

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/157916/1.ashx

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