HILLARY STEP- In your never ending venture to constantly point out that I am flawed in trying to assist people without having " professional experience " which I have admitted I am NOT a therapist - however I do seem to have more emotional intelligence and sensitivity to victims of child abuse by my choice of words that I use.
In your post you stated about pedophiles, " They are predators , and the hunt itself is exciting to them. Unlike the opportunist, they plan, deceive with an astonishing cunning, fantasize and cannot function properly without the smell of infant sex in their nostrils . "
Now you tell me - Could your choice of words here show any less sensitivity to people who suffered at the hands of pedophiles when they were infants ?? I would highly advise you sir, to show more consideration for those on this board who HAVE suffered as you mentioned. I'm quite sure that the abuse victims can do without seeing your descriptions of how pedophiles " fantasize " and enjoy the " smell of infant sex ." That is insulting to those who suffered these abuses. Am I making too much sense here ? We don't need a blow by blow description of how " thrilled " allegedly a pedophile feels when sexually abusing an infant. All I have to say.
HOMEROVAH- I too feel that some here minimize the extreme damage that child abuse has done to victims who have to live with the hurt they have endured the rest of their lives
How Can We Expose Child Abusers - Who Got Away with it as Witnesses ?
by flipper 115 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse
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flipper
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watson
People with the "IQ," keep the people with the "EQ" in balance. It's all good.
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nameless_one
Homerovah, I don't think anyone here is advocating "no action." What is being debated and examined is the TYPE of action, and rightly so. Simplistic extremes are rarely good solutions, especially in matters of such complexity and fragility. One size does not fit all, and the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
(Edited to say, I type too slowly and others are expressing what I'm trying to say more eloquently than I can. I need to walk away from this thread.) -
cognizant dissident
Homerovah, your post was very thoughtless. Many of the people who were saying it was not a good idea to take exposing child molesters into one's own hands, were themselves the victims of child molestors, myself included. To say that they are making themselves friends of molestors and don't care about social justice is insulting and offensive to the nth degree!
Mr. Flipper wanted opinions and he got some opinions from actual victims of this crime that were not positive about making it anybody's crusade to expose child molestors.
I absolutely believe Mr. Flipper's heart is in the right place. I also believe he is inexperienced and naive about the possible consequences of exposing child molestors.
If Crazy Blonde Deb is his friend and she is at a place in her healing where she wants to speak out and wants Mr. Flipper to support her, then, I am all for that scenario. I have done the same for a close friend when she asked me to. The crucial point is this: she is the victim and she has asked Mr. Flipper for his help and support! Hopefully they are both fully prepared for the 99% chance that things will turn very ugly and very difficult after the confrontation.
For some victims, it is about finally having a voice and not being silenced and that is a great place to be. It is just the process of speaking out that is healing. For others, they are expecting and wanting some sort of specific positive outcome from those that they tell. They are often being set up for further emotional devastation and need serious professional support behind them.
Am, I wrong here, or is the well being of the victim the paramount thing in all of this? It is not in every victims best interest to have their molestor exposed publicly. That will often expose the victim at the same time, leaving them hanging out on a limb publicly with no support and often a vicious backlash of attack.
Just to clarify, I am not talking about exposing a current case of child molestation that one knows about. Of course, anyone who knows of a child currently being abused, steps must be taken to protect them immediately. However, even the authorities take great pains that the child's name should not become public when a molestor is exposed. Sometimes they even will not publish the name of someone arrested because it would then be easy to identify the child and this is deemed more harmful to the child, than publishing his name would be helpful.
I am speaking of adult survivors who can make the choice for themselves if and when they want to do so. Even "encouraging" them is not a good idea. You may be encouraging them to do something which will not make them feel better at all, but may make their struggle much worse!
I stand by what I originally said. It can be very psychologically damaging to a victim to have his/her abuse exposed publicly or to confront their molestor when they are not ready for it. Unless someone who has been abused has specifically asked you for your help in doing so, then no one should take it upon themselves to do so.
Cog
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flipper
WATSON- I agree IQ and EQ should be kept in balance.
NAMELESS ONE - Very true that the type of action is important in fighting child abuse and exposing it -
Sparkplug
Ok, after going about it in my head and reading the post written by everyone for a bit now, I guess I will venture into the jungle and see what "this doo's".
Personally I hate that the statue of limitation has run out for some. Often most in these cases cannot be prosecuted it seems. I for one have a burr in my shorts when it comes to all of this and all of the complications. For instance What Tex Wrote here is huge, "My motivation was to help anyone avoid what I went through. In many ways it was worse than the original event, if you take my meaning. " For he is absolutely right. From my experience, and that is all I have to go by one of the worst things to build up your courage and once again have it shot down by the offender.
An example of such is having confronted my one brother who is still in the dubs in another state about his having told me that the one child he abused was not the only one. Then as if I were not there and as if I did not hear what I heard nor discuss it with him, he will lie to me and say he did not say that. It is bullsh*t!
He still goes to meetings, assemblies, crosses state lines all amongst the congregations without registering in each state he goes into. He has access to people I love and I do not.
It is hurtful and raw to know that he is guilty and won't have to pay. Not that I want revenge. But if he is lying, then I don't see that he has changed. Repentant? A person who has stopped a pattern of abuse to children...I think not. He walks about and has free reign of whosoever he pleases. Heck he brags of taking vans of kids to the assembly. No damn joke.
I even handed the elders letters he wrote me from prison that showed he was still WAY messed up. How he wanted me to be his second wife and all kinds of messed up things. NOTHING was done. Those letters disappeared off the face of the earth and I will not see them again. I am sure they were in a trash can years ago. Now that I think about it, it was odd how the brother that came to get them from me was alone, met me at MCD's and was not in a suit. Just trying to be a regular guy. No witnesses. I was young and did not make a copy. (really young) I am sure it was all demised that way. So now my one brother walks around free and clear and his review among the parole board passed with flying colors.
I am all for getting professional help. And I have to say that as HS says yes professionals are the correct one to do the job. BUT, I also must say that as far as Flipper said. The first thing they tell you is go to the ones that support you. I even was told to not loose contact with people from here that I had made friends with because of the intricacies that arise and not a lot of people understand them except for a peer group like the people here. Ones who have been through it. BUT again I say that with knowing and having done it, professional help is a must also.
I also was played recordings of the transcripts and such of the professionals that handled my brother that he is fine. Well I don't give a shit. Just because a person has a degree in something or another does not make them good at what they do. Even if they are good, still someone slips through the cracks. It is narcissistic personalities like this that think they are smarter than the professionals. For the moment, yes he was. But people like him do not hide the color they try to keep in front all the time and people who have been on the receiving end slowly start to spot people such as him. Some are more skilled at it while it takes others going to a professional to see what is right in front of their face.
Hell imagine my horror at trying to wrap my head around a personality I cannot even remember much. The damage left is there. I respond to crap due to situations I was put in very young. My mind is a actually a wiped slate when it comes to these events I lived through. I even called my sister who was older and has told me something happened to me. She remembers it all. Now mind you, we don't talk, she is a witness. But she will talk with me about these things. So I am distraught. Life was messed up for a while there and I had these dreams creeping in. I could have puked on the floor when I started to tell her a dream and she finished it for me. To the detail. She said they are not dreams and these are things that happened.
Now what to do with that? Furthermore, what to do with the knowledge from professionals that I will continue to be attracted to and attract these personalities until I face these issues that I cannot remember. Talk about a messed up plan. So somewhere in me, I have this training to be freaking terrified of, and in awe of something horrible that I need to address or I will keep making the same mistake. WTF?
A nightmare does not a full memory make and an aspect of someones personality does not make them a pedophile. BUT I not even knowing my step dad that well have to deal with the damage he did to my head. Damage I did not know existed, and yet, I keep repeating over and over. So yes, professionals will help you sort it all out. And support from friends, this place, and lots of other places that you have people will help put it all in its correct place. I realize there is bad advice out there, but that also is part of cognitive therapy. When in a group and you have to hear someones bad advice...part of getting better is to realize it is bad advice. You know? Perhaps part of what that person needs is to hear that they give bad advice!
Now here is the kicker, when you do go get help, and then loved ones start to become condescending because they do not understand what you are going through. Often they have their own demons they have not faced. When people around you don't have a clue or can't possibly imagine the damage they do to your love for them, and yet at the time act so smart because they have read or have heard this or that. Or perhaps just don't want you to be so screwed up in some areas...well it hurts. You lose loved ones. You lose friends and you lose closeness to your kids sometimes because they cannot wrap their minds around where you are at.
You want to be happy that they don't have a clue, but the more you learn with the professionals, the more you learn how much they don't know and how truly things will never be the same. Once you are empowered, even if just a bit...you cannot see them the same. Your kids, yeah. For me it was that. But friends...It was like losing my new family all over again. First you lose a childhood. Then you lose innocence. Then you lose faith, then you think you have it right just to find out how misinformed you were. Then you find out choices you made are not good and not healthy. Then you lose all over again. Here and there you gain insight to people and they into you and some actually seek help for themselves and even if it is to do a litle research as to why they reacted how they did, you have to be a bit happy that they cared enough to do it.
Suddenly that crazy person you know is not so crazy. Suddenly they are really freaking smart and you see how even after having left the dubs (getting kicked out and not going back) that you still were looking at things askewed. Then the kicker is to realize people you thought were the smartest are not even close to smart.
Your world is turned around and everything is turned around and if you are a person who thinks too much, or are told you do, it is hard not to run each of these things through your mind like a Catholic grasping at rosary beads. When it all has settled, you often see that there is not a lot to be done with old cases. Help people you know with what you have learned, help ones going through it as youngsters by being attentive and not doubting what you see. Don't ignore that voice you hear in your head when you see something or experience mind control and get more faith in yourself. HEll even if you thought you had enough as I did you can be shocked.
This world is FULL of monsters. They walk about and look like you or me and they look normal. Hell that is their aim. They have shit they don't want you to see and they keep it tidy. That is what they do. That is how they exist. They pull things a person with a conscience as yours may never pull. Then they walk about still with a clean conscience. It does not bother them. The criteria they have for conscience is different than yours or mine. (I speak to people having sat where I sit) So if you think that you can get about and keep up with them, you are fooling yourself. You can only catch some and usually it is things that are happening now. Not then, and you have to get over it. Keep informed, and keep others informed, but keep your behind and your kiddos and loved ones away from them.
Hell I had one friend tell me that there is more than one way into a little girls panties. She was so right. The looks one gets from older men/women that are not appropriate and the freaking hunter prey game that goes on does not go unseen. The best I would think, that one can do is inform your kids that they feel that way for a reason. Stay clear from them. A person ogling your daughter or son that is above age is justifying it in their minds somehow. But the damage they do to the ones they gaze upon or play games with is harmful. Even when they never touch. It makes the kid feel bad about themselves. Heck as far as I know, my brother by marriage never laid a hand on me. Others he did, but I know that when prolonged exposure to him was happening, I felt so awful about myself. Confused and reacted in ways that now I cannot change. It just messes with ones head. And the sad fact is that they LOVE it! They are getting what they want just by looking and they don't care. Selfish and predators. Just waiting for anything that feeds the needs they have. (wants)
So I know I am writing thoughts out fast and having had several and horrible experiences in my life...some I remember, some I don't, I am sure that this may not make sense to many, but to those who have been there. They will know exactly what I am writing of.
Each case is individual. Some may get justice, some may not. But please don't ruin the rest of your life pouring hatred into something you cannot fix. By all means fix it if you can, but most of all...fix yourself. Because ain't nobody going to do it for you.
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cognizant dissident
WATSON- I agree IQ and EQ should be kept in balance.
The two can exist in one person. I like to think I have a nice balance, but I may just be tooting my own horn!
NAMELESS ONE - Very true that the type of action is important in fighting child abuse and exposing it. Peace out, Mr. Flipper
The thing is, one can never know the right type of action to take in any particular case without being in very close contact with the victim and in touch with what they themselves want. This is impossible in any type of group action. Bill Bowen is a perfect example. He no doubt started out with wonderful intentions that came from personal experience helping some victims that he knew. However, at some point, the crusade and his ego became more important than the victims, if the recent stories I have read about the situation are accurate.
This is always a danger when those who see themselves as "helpers" have a need to become involved. Sometimes their own need to "be helping" is taking precedent over what the "helpee" needs.
That last statement is not intended as a slam against Mr. Flipper. I say that is something all professional "helpers" (nurses, psychologists, etc) have to examine and confront honestly within themselves. It's a necessary part of their training. I have also had to examine this question when I was training as a nurse. The question to ask ourselves is this: how much is my own ego involved in the need to be seen as a person who "helps" others. That often puts the helper and the helpee on an uneven power level in the relationship.
Cog
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JWdaughter
Maybe a list of congregations that they are known to still be a part of would be more helpful than just the town. There can be several congregations in one (not so big) town.
I think it is more important if you personally know of a person who has access to children that has a history-whether it is a statute of limitations thing or not-report it to the police and child welfare folks. BOTH. It will alert authorities if nothing else, and they may be able to investigate based on the accusation. There may be statutes about civil lawsuits and criminal prosecutions, but you can report a crime(and have it in the system) anytime I think. It can't hurt, and if the statute is too late to prosecute or you can't 'prove' it-that isn't your job. You are allowed to make a police report based on your actual knowledge of events. Unproven cases do not mean that the victims are subject to charges-unless they are malicious and known to be false. Tons of people are acquitted and they don't get to sue unless there is evidence of perfidy on the part of the accuser.
That being said, I am not a lawyer, and most police probably don't give a rats ass about what happened to you in the 8th grade or what uncle Stan did on the fourth of July in 1989. But, if it is a name they have heard before, it will perk them up and make them pay attention. You never know what will do it.
Some of the victims of the priests are middle aged now.
How old do you have to be before it doesn't hurt knowing that your perpetrator is still out there hurting other kids? -
Sparkplug
"That being said, I am not a lawyer, and most police probably don't give a rats ass about what happened to you in the 8th grade or what uncle Stan did on the fourth of July in 1989. But, if it is a name they have heard before, it will perk them up and make them pay attention. You never know what will do it."
That's very true. It often lends weight to stuff they know that you don't. Perhaps helping someone out when they can't just quite put a finger on if they are going what the kid says or what the adult says. More wives close their eyes due to the nature of it all. they don't want to believe. But sometimes a track record cannot be disputed. The world may think them mad and the lives of such may be upset. BUT, maybe, just maybe they will get the kid in a bad situation out of it if too many things are piled on the plate.
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Sparkplug
Cog~ Powerful statement there!
"It's a necessary part of their training. I have also had to examine this question when I was training as a nurse. The question to ask ourselves is this: how much is my own ego involved in the need to be seen as a person who "helps" others. That often puts the helper and the helpee on an uneven power level in the relationship."
Hell as a person that is receiving the help it is frustrating to hear what 'should and should' not be done and how they would have done it etc...When you cannot even take any of the advice the person is giving due to glaring and screaming hypocrisy that exist in the person trying to help the situations life. And even if it is a distant professional, it is still easy to spot a person who just wants to be your savior. They sometimes don't even hear what you need. What you are wanting. They just want to be right. Even if dead wrong.
That is whey I say a balance mix of the two are needed. To keep one from trusting anyone as gold, and to also keep the ego in check. If a person really cares, they will not have to be right...they will just want you truly better.