Define "person".
Can the holy spirit be a person???
by leaving-jws 28 Replies latest watchtower bible
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OBVES
Most christian religions are false already based on their doctrine of the Trinity . Jehovah's Witnesses are right but not completely.
Look at words in the title ! I did it on purpose to show you a difference. Jesus is called God just as Moses was called God but they are not Gods literally speaking so to see a difference it is good to write GOD all letters in capitals to show that God Yahweh is the only true God = GOD and LORD . Just like Jesus is Lord .These are two different beings.
The Holy Spirit is not an active force or a person of God . It is simply the spirit . The spirit in a sense that it is a santicifying way God Yahweh works in His people . It is like a force in a sense like when we speak let's do it in the spirit of love = in the way of love.
This spirit can be personified like wisdom is personified in Proverbs 2.
The Holy Spirit is personified but is not a person literally.
The active force of God is everywhere in the universe as God Yahweh continues to create the universe and sustains each and every particle of mattter the universe is composed of. But the Spirit of God is in His true worshippers only now .
John 17.3 and 20.17 clearly show God Yahweh who is the Father to Jesus and Israel is the only true God. You can insert GOD there to make a distinction.
There is nowhere in the Bible where you can find 1/3 of God- the Father,1/3 of God- Jesus Christ and 1/3 of God - the Holy Spirit . If you find it then we have one God in three persons !
Jehovah's Witnesses can be happy to have the doctrine of one true God which puts them well ahead of all organized religions !
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UnDisfellowshipped
Hello "Leaving-JWs," how are you?
You said:
My mom and I got into a debate about the trinity doctrine.
She claims that the holy spirit cannot be a person which invalidates the trinity doctrine. She says in Genesis that the holy spirit was depicted as "roving about the earth" as an "active force". Since the holy spirit is an active force in her opinion it cannot be a person. Also, because the trinity includes three persons and not two persons and a spirit. She also quoted some scriptures that support that Jesus is lesser than Jehovah.
Does anyone have a comment about this? Is her explanation correct?
The Hebrew word used for "Spirit" at Genesis 1:2 is "Ruach." According to Bible Dictionaries, this word has a large variety of different meanings depending on the context, including "wind," "breath," "air," "temper," "anger," "disposition," "life of a person as a gift from God," "The Holy Spirit," and "spirits" (such as angels or demons).
The same phrase used in Genesis 1:2 ("The Spirit [Ruach] of God") is also used at Genesis 41:38, Exodus 31:3, 35:31, Numbers 24:2, 1st Samuel 10:10, 11:6, 19:20, 19:23, 2nd Chronicles 15:1, 24:20, Job 27:3, 33:4, Ezekiel 11:24. Why does the New World Translation render that word "Active Force" at Genesis 1:2, but as "spirit" in those other verses?
Now, as to whether The Holy Spirit is a Person or not, here we go (all verses shown are from the New World Translation):
1:) The Holy Spirit has His own will, mind, and thoughts:
1st Corinthians 12:11 (NWT): But all these operations the one and the same spirit performs, making a distribution to each one respectivelyjust as it wills.
Acts 13:2-3 (NWT): As they were publicly ministering to Jehovah and fasting, the holy spirit said: "Of all persons set Bar´na·bas and Saul apart for mefor the work to which I have called them." Then they fasted and prayed and laid their hands upon them and let them go.
Acts 10:19-20 (NWT): As Peter was going over in his mind about the vision, the spirit said: "Look! Three men are seeking you. However, rise, go downstairs and be on your way with them, not doubting at all, because I have dispatched them."
Acts 16:6-7 (NWT): Moreover, they went through Phryg´i·a and the country of Ga·la´ti·a, because they were forbidden by the holy spirit to speak the word in the [district of] Asia. Further, when getting down to Mys´i·a they made efforts to go into Bi·thyn´i·a, but the spirit of Jesus did not permit them.
2:) The Holy Spirit can be lied against, blasphemed, and can feel hurt:
Isaiah 63:10 (NWT): But they themselves rebelled and made his holy spirit feel hurt. He now was changed into an enemy of theirs; he himself warred against them.
Acts 5:2-4 (NWT): But Peter said: "An·a·ni´as, why has Satan emboldened you to play false to the holy spirit and to hold back secretly some of the price of the field? ... You have played false, not to men, but to God."
Matthew 12:31-32 (NWT): "On this account I say to you, Every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven. For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things nor in that to come.
Ephesians 4:30 (NWT): Also, do not be grieving God’s holy spirit, with which you have been sealed for a day of releasing by ransom.
3:) The Holy Spirit is invoked equally with The Father and The Son by the First-Century Christians:
Matthew 28:19 (NWT): Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit
2nd Corinthians 13:14 (NWT): The undeserved kindness of the Lord Jesus Christand the love of God and the sharing in the holy spirit be with all of you.
1st Corinthians 12:4-6 (NWT): Now there are varieties of gifts, but there is the same spirit; and there are varieties of ministries, and yet there is the same Lord; and there are varieties of operations, and yet it is the same God who performs all the operations in all persons.
Ephesians 4:4-6 (NWT): One body there is, and one spirit, ... one Lord, ... one God and Father of all [persons], who is over all and through all and in all.
Hebrews 9:14 (NWT): Christ, who through an everlasting spirit offered himself without blemish to God
1st Peter 1:1-2 (NWT): Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the temporary residents scattered about ..., to the ones chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, with sanctification by the spirit, for the purpose of their being obedient and sprinkled with the blood of Jesus Christ
Revelation 1:4-5 (NWT): John to the seven congregations that are in the [district of] Asia: May you have undeserved kindness and peace from "The One who is and who was and who is coming," and from the seven spirits that are before his throne, and from Jesus Christ ...
Now, about the Father being greater than The Son:
The Father does have a greater position of authority within the Nature or Essence of God, but Jesus is still equally God by Nature. They are both 100% God in Nature. Ask your mother to look up the true meaning of John 1:1 in the "Reasoning" book, or "Trinity" brochure, or "Insight" book, and she will see that even the Watchtower Society teaches that Jesus shares the same Nature that God has.
Ask her what that means. How can Jesus share all of God's Nature and have all of the fullness of the Godship (see Colossians 2:9 footnote in NWT Reference Bible), and still not be Almighty God?
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Aurelius
Amen
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Witness 007
Gen 1;2 "The Spirit was hovering over the waters.....what like a Hover-craft?......is he a water sports person, or water inspector? Seems strange he has nothing better to do....like say, run THE UNIVERSE!!!!!!
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UnDisfellowshipped
OBVES said:
Most christian religions are false already based on their doctrine of the Trinity . Jehovah's Witnesses are right but not completely.
Based on what evidence?
OBVES said:
Look at words in the title ! I did it on purpose to show you a difference. Jesus is called God just as Moses was called God but they are not Gods literally speaking so to see a difference it is good to write GOD all letters in capitals to show that God Yahweh is the only true God = GOD and LORD . Just like Jesus is Lord .These are two different beings.
Why do you think that Jesus is the same type of "God" as Moses was, instead of being the same type of "GOD" that GOD is?
OBVES said:
The Holy Spirit is not an active force or a person of God . It is simply the spirit . The spirit in a sense that it is a santicifying way God Yahweh works in His people . It is like a force in a sense like when we speak let's do it in the spirit of love = in the way of love.
Could you explain this a little more? Are you saying that The Holy Spirit is actually nothing except for a phrase or a manner of speaking?
OBVES said:
This spirit can be personified like wisdom is personified in Proverbs 2.
But why is the Holy Spirit "personified" repeatedly throughout both Old and New Testaments?
OBVES said:
The Holy Spirit is personified but is not a person literally.
Based on what? Do you have any evidence from the Holy Scriptures that the Holy Spirit is only being personified and is not actually a Person? Why should we automatically assume that the Holy Spirit is NOT a person, while at the same time we believe that spirit angels, Satan, and his spirit demons are actual persons?
Why do we believe that the angels and demons are spirit persons? Shouldn't the same interpretation rules be applied to the Holy Spirit?
OBVES said:
The active force of God is everywhere in the universe as God Yahweh continues to create the universe and sustains each and every particle of mattter the universe is composed of. But the Spirit of God is in His true worshippers only now.
John 17.3 and 20.17 clearly show God Yahweh who is the Father to Jesus and Israel is the only true God. You can insert GOD there to make a distinction.
At Hebrews 1:10, The Father calls Jesus LORD. So, does that exclude The Father from also being LORD? At 1st Corinthians 8:4-6, Paul says Jesus is the only Lord for Christians, but does this exclude The Father from also being our Lord? The same interpretation rules should apply to John 17:3 and 20:17.
OBVES said:
There is nowhere in the Bible where you can find 1/3 of God- the Father,1/3 of God- Jesus Christ and 1/3 of God - the Holy Spirit . If you find it then we have one God in three persons !
The Trinity doctrine does not teach that each Person only makes up 1/3 of God. No, rather, the Trinity is Three distinct Persons who are each fully, 100% God in their essence or nature.
It is sort of like three human persons in the sense that each person is fully 100% human. It is not exactly the same because God exists in a totally different essence or nature than what we humans have.
OBVES said:
Jehovah's Witnesses can be happy to have the doctrine of one true God which puts them well ahead of all organized religions !
Based on what evidence?
You are correct when you point out that there is only one true GOD, and that all others who are called "God" or "god" are merely "so-called gods," not true GOD by nature. Paul taught the same thing in 1st Corinthians 8:4-6.
However, the main thing that you have missed is that Paul, in that same chapter, goes on to explain that for Christians, both The Father and The Son are NOT in the "so-called gods" category that all other "gods" are in. Therefore, both The Father and Jesus must be in the category or class of being THE ONE TRUE GOD.
Also, John 1:1, Philippians 2:6, and Colossians 2:9 teach that Jesus shares the exact same essence or nature that God the Father has.
Please examine Romans 10:9-13. It should become clear that Paul is referring to Jesus as THE LORD [YAHWEH]. See also Hebrews 1:10.
Let me know what you think.
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Terry
The Holy Spirit is a maguffin.
It is the "magic word" the magician utters to make his trick "work'.
It is agency in a myth.
We cannot define spirit or holy when you get right down to it. We can assert a definition.
There are no real, actual, ostensible referents for bible terms like "force" or "spirit" or "holy". They are conceptual fabrications which seem to have meaning.
It is a trick.
How did the 1950's monsters get so big? Radiation! They mutated!
That's the maguffin which serves to "explain" the inexplicable. It is barely a reason. Just enough to make you suspend disbelief.
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keyser soze
To me, this is similar to arguing whether Santa Claus has real bells or electronic ones on his sleigh.
I agree. Obviously in the age of technology we're living in, they would be electronic.
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UnDisfellowshipped
Witness 007 said:
Gen 1;2 "The Spirit was hovering over the waters.....what like a Hover-craft?......is he a water sports person, or water inspector? Seems strange he has nothing better to do....like say, run THE UNIVERSE!!!!!!
Job 33:4 and Psalm 104:30 teach that The Spirit was involved in creation and played an active role in creating the Universe and mankind.
The Hebrew word used at Genesis 1:2 rendered as "hovering" or "brooding" is the same word used at Deuteronomy 32:11 to describe a mother bird protecting her young with her wings.
Notice what Adam Clarke's Commentary says about Genesis 1:2:
Moved - merachepheth, was brooding over; for the word expresses that tremulous motion made by the hen while either hatching her eggs or fostering her young. It here probably signifies the communicating a vital or prolific principle to the waters. As the idea of incubation, or hatching an egg, is implied in the original word, hence probably the notion, which prevailed among the ancients, that the world was generated from an egg.
Jaimieson, Fausset, and Brown's Commentary has this to say:
the Spirit of God moved — literally, continued brooding over it, as a fowl does, when hatching eggs. The immediate agency of the Spirit, by working on the dead and discordant elements, combined, arranged, and ripened them into a state adapted for being the scene of a new creation. The account of this new creation properly begins at the end of this second verse; and the details of the process are described in the natural way an onlooker would have done, who beheld the changes that successively took place.
So, then, Genesis 1:2 is actually teaching us that The Spirit was indeed holding the earth together, creating and rearranging and changing the parts that needed to be changed or rearranged.
The Spirit watches over His Universe and His earth as a mother bird watches over her young ones.