Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

by Dogpatch 501 Replies latest jw friends

  • Dogpatch
    Dogpatch

    Sorry for hogging the space, boys, but I'm on a roll before I burn out and have to finish my 7-week late Journal.

    Freddy had a well-developed BA (bad attitude). That may seem like a dangerous thing to have at the house of God, but if you were not stupid you could swing it to your advantage. Kind of like having cigarettes in prison or something.

    Clever old timers got their jollies from baiting new boys to expose their BAs before they were mature. Nothing funnier than a new boy faus pas, probably the only entertainment left for some there. :-))

    Others delighted in political games, like moi. I'd better not tell the story about getting one ego transferred out of the pressroom into the Service Dept. (LOOKS like a promotion folks, but it is a dead end and sucks!) OKAY we played the game, but it worked. Some were suspicious. :-))

    The cartoons are drawn by Mark Quakenbush at the time, who worked with us in the pressroom. He was the nephew of Colin Quakenbush (quite the popular family out in the San Fernando Valley). He was a rebel purist and still is. Godspeed, Mark!

    Anyway, the following cartoon shows the irony only to a Bethelite.

    Son you have eh bad attitude!

    The irony is, of course, is the suggestion that Cal Chyke and Max Larson were more liberal, or had turned liberal.

    Hell would freeze over first! THAT was the joke.

    Franz like to be arbitrary, but not to the tune of others.

    dude!

  • Tom Cabeen
    Tom Cabeen

    Hey Warren,

    Thanks for giving Greg the heads up. Give him my number if you don't mind. I will be happy to hear from him.

    Tom

  • Poztate
    Poztate
    Guido was convinced the end was coming in 1974, not 1975 (A Franz glitch?) Anyone else have an old-timer friend who was cueing in on '74? Not uncommon.

    I think freddy franz did a little mind fart speculation in an article to the effect that 75' marked the end of 6000 years so "A" had to be over by then because the 1000 year reign and the 6000 years couldn't be more than one of those 7000 year "creative days"

    I know my Dad believed it would all be over by 75. He really believed in the 1914 generation theory also. He knew he was never going to die. That didn't happen either and then he died...Twelve years ago.

    This is a really interesting thread about Bethel and the "good old days" I can see now why they are trying to downsize Bethel.....It is nothing but a Poztateā„¢ breeding ground...

  • DubNoMo
    DubNoMo

    ** "Just a few minutes ago I was telling Brother Barber how bad I feel...He told me that there's always the resurrection...I would like to thank Brother Barber for his encouraging words." -S. Herd **

    That is a gem! Still LOL.

    But, then, this whole thread has been a gem. Thanks to all for their comments.

    ---
    And the Borg shall straighten thy path and direct thine advance verily into the miasma of malodorous monkey muck ... Hezekiah 19:14 NWT

  • still_in74
    still_in74

    i remember a Bethel bro up here in canada telling me about a time when some bros in NY got caught renting adult films (porn)

    I guess once per week the canada branch would tie in over the phone to NY and listen to the breakfast pep talk. Well one morning the GB member (i cant remember who) got up and mentioned how a local store owner had come to bethel and reported that he had been renting out several adult films to men with the bethel address and that he didnt think this was appropriate so he brought it to Bethels attention.

    The brother then said that everyone of those movies had better be returned to the store before work started that morning.

    I was shocked, i said "can you imagine how they must have felt?" he said to me "can you imagine how they felt when they saw a bethel overseer in the store waiting for them?"

    this would have happened in the late 80's early 90's

    does anyone remember this?????

  • Tom Cabeen
    Tom Cabeen

    Sorry, faulty editing.

  • Tom Cabeen
    Tom Cabeen

    Ignore this one, too! On to the next one, the right one!

  • Tom Cabeen
    Tom Cabeen

    Poztateā„¢

    I am probably in the minority, but I actually think Freddy Franz actually believed his own predictions. In that way, I think he was much like Russell. Both of them bought into the theory that somehow one could actually calculate the time of Christ's return. (Most Christians for the past two millennia just took Jesus at his word when he said it would be unexpected, like a thief in the night. Only a few like Russell and Franz forged ahead, trying to outsmart him.)

    Rutherford, on the other hand, was not deceived IMHO. He was nothing but an opportunist who saw a golden opportunity in Russell's disappointed followers. He stepped right into Russell's shoes and published the seventh and final volume in Russell's series. But the tables got quickly turned when his little scheme landed him in jail. So he fabricated the whole story about captivity, and set out to create an "organization" (the word means a group of people used as a tool, it was used during that time in connection with labor unions), his own little army to send out, primarily to take revenge against the Catholic church for the role they played in having him, a "Judge", imprisoned. That, I think, is where he came up with his whole fabricated story about God needing to "vindicate" his name. No orthodox Christian ever thought that God's name needed vindication. God needs nothing from us, least of all vindication. That was just Rutherford talking about his own need for self-justification and vindication as being a really good guy, even though he had been put in the clink. That is my informed opinion, anyway.

    Regarding Bethel being an apostate breeding ground, I think you are right. The Society got way off the WT track during the seventies. It started in the late sixties with NHK's idea to have a Bible dictionary. He thought it would be a big money maker. But producing the Aid book had an unexpected byproduct. It made some of the writers actually think more logically about what JWs were doing and why. I doubt that anyone had ever done that before. The result was big changes like the elder arrangement and the GB. Unfortunately, some of the R&F started thinking, too. Before you know it, people were reading the Bible without the publications, and even Bible commentaries and discovering to their surprise that other people besides WT writers read the Bible, too. And that their guesses about what it means were in many cases a heck of a lot better than the ones they were reading in the WT publications (Remember the article "Figs that Give Pleasure Even to God"?) Obviously, that kind of thing (thinking and reading outside publications) had to be stopped. (In the late 1970s, several of the Brooklyn Service Department staff kept a copy of Barnes' Notes right on their desks.)

    Prior to 1980, I had never heard of anyone ever being disfellowshipped for apostasy. It was theoretically possible, but extremely rare, like getting df'd for gluttony or for envy. (Look up the word in your WT index and check out its frequency and use prior to 1980.) That is why Cris Sanchez and Nestor Kuilan were so open when questioned. Why shouldn't they be? It said "READ GOD'S WORD THE HOLY BIBLE DAILY" in big green letters right on the side of our factory building. Who knew they didn't really mean it? So thinking was the problem. Until they either got rid of the thinkers or forced them into self-imposed lobotomies, things could not return to a semblance of normalcy.

    Bottom line, any stories you hear about Bethel in the 1970s are atypical. The WTS was never like that before, and it will never be like that again. At least not in our lifetimes.

    Best,

    Tom

  • biff mcfly
    biff mcfly

    Never heard the porn video story..but how bout this one...happened in '87...I know it's true because the guy was my roommate's first roommate (before me). The guy..whose name shall be withheld..arrived from Oregon riddled with guilt for engaging in some oral olympics with a comely sister at his Bethel going away party. He confessed to my roommate who urged him to talk to the elders..needless to say..he possibly had one of the shortest Bethel careers of all time..back on a plane the next day to Oregon..talk about embarrassment.

  • Gamaliel
    Gamaliel

    Warren,

    "But last of all {this thread} appeared also to me as if to one born prematurely." (1 Cor 15:something-or-other)

    Thanks for letting me know about this thread. I enjoyed it thoroughly. Reminded me of memories I forgot that I had.

    For me, this is one of the best kinds of threads to read. Bethel was about the best thing that ever happened to me (at least from 1976 up to 1980). It can be the perfect jumping off point (weaning ground) for JW's realizing they can never go back home.

    Your brother,
    Greg


    Tom: I'm about to go on vacation in a few days. So I'll try to get in touch before then.

    Randy: Warren gave me some updates after contacting you. Glad to see you're still going strong. Great site! Great CD's!

    CoonDawg: That might have been me giving the talk in St.James. One year (77) I gave some of my own recorded interviews with Fred Franz, Grace DeCecca, etc. On one of my last visits (80) they let me give a talk on the book of Hebrews. Letting us "premature apostates" give our own truly Bible-based talks only lasted a few short years. I left around '82 when they started cracking down on that sort of thing. My talks were basically just compilations from "the best of" my RLengtat notes or JNapolitano, even CAulicino, etc. I'm not a great speaker, but you could still tell that audiences were often hungry to get a talk that went outside of the outlines.

    Speaking of great memories, I helped build that house for Roberta out near the Jones'es just before I left for Bethel - from pouring the foundation, several of the wall frames, even putting the tar and shingles on the roof. I remember Vivian and Becky were great fun when we had to go out in service together. We had a great game we used to play where we would talk over each other as fast as possible -- seemed like about 300 words a minute. But it all had to make sense and be responsive to the other person's logic and questions, which were also coming at 300 wpm. Finally one person lost by either flubbing up the fast talk, losing the logic of the "conversation", or usually by bursting out laughing. I recently tried that game again at age 50, and I'm already tongue-tied at < 50 wpm.

    TD, Jeff, etc, etc: Great to see so many of you still here.

    Saltpeter? Is that really better than a dishonorable discharge?

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