burn your Ray Franz books (page 3)

one

edward,

ir you were ray, at his age, experience etc in 1980.

What would you do?

regarding CoC it is mainly factual info, most people who read the book appreciate

teejay

Edward,

Your positions are moderate and I hope you are being edified by this debate, as I am.

I am. Your views are very reasonable, I must say. After all, they are very close to mine, so they MUST be reasonable, eh?

Currently I am going back thru this entry, altering my entry. I learnt that from the borg.

I understand. Personally, I let my errors stand, editing only immediately after posting in order to get the italics and bold just right. (getting it just right is tricky sometimes) Otherwise, I just let the stupid, ignorant, silly things I say just hang out there. I learnt that from my mom and dad. F**k the borg.

I notice there is no response to the "bred to rulership"point I made. Do I assume you conceed?

Absolutely. Your analogy of movie stars (Cher, in particular... the most no-talent celebrity in the history of the entertainment business... don't get me started!) was right on. Nepotism is alive and well in the WTS, from the local level on up.
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Richie,

Raymond already left the Borg in his own way... Eventually the Borg got him on a technicality and they mercilessly disfellowshipped him.

I know. I read his books long time ago.

You were making a comparison, very poorly indeed, of a nazi turned former nazi and then you state that if that person would be in the wrong hands again that he would be a dangerous person. Remember, nazis were nazis when Germany had its power...when the war was over, of course they all had to sing a different tune - but to compare this with Ray Franz?

No. I was speaking of Edward's former hatchet man friend who's now overly fond of Ray being like a former nazi.

What about the JW's who have become ex-JW's?? We all were of the same mindset, but we are not now anymore, but if I were in the wrong hands, I would NEVER have the same mindset anymore, would you now that you are NOT a witness anymore??

Have you been posting long? Stick around. You will see a familiar JW mentality very much alive among many exJWs. If you want, I will point it out to you.

the same with Ray Franz: he was never of the same mindset in the beginning (including Ed Dunlap) - only by entering the Governing Body did he begin to realize how corrupt and self-centered they were, otherwise he would have never known beforehand!

I understand. Still, I wonder whether he would have written his two excellent exposes if he'd not been disfellowshipped. I tend to doubt it.

would Paul have changed if he were in the wrong hands?? Of course not...so why blame Ray Franz?

I don't blame Ray for anything. Apparently you have missed my comments on this board where I have said that Ray is a personal hero of mine; that I owe him a huge debt of gratitude; that his books, both in my library, helped to answer questions about the Society from when I was a little boy. Still, he isn't beyond questioning. If you sat and talked with him, I'm certain he'd tell you the same thing.

Check first and then speak - sometimes our minds can be a trap in that we race to conclusions and afterwards we do the thinking

I'm not always, 100% of the time successful in following your advice, but usually I am. The thoughts I have expressed here are well thought out, I assure you. Nevertheless, I will keep your advice close in mind.

Peace,
tj

RedhorseWoman

Well, Edward, the way I look at it is that you have to start somewhere. Ray's books present his experiences, and they have been very instrumental in opening peoples' eyes to the truth about the "truth". I don't see them as an anti-WTBTS "Bible", but merely a springboard to further research.

Ray has sent up no counter-organization, nor has he set himself up as a leader. He is merely a chronicler of the inner workings of the BOrg.

If youe friend is setting up Ray Franz as his own personal icon, I see that as cult programming still in force in his life. Right now he seems to have substituted one cult for another....and this cult is one of his own making. Hopefully, he will eventually level out with his thinking.

The WTBTS inspires many things in many people, and sometimes those who have been its most fervent supporters have been hurt the worst by what they see as a betrayal of trust. Your friend is probably one of those, and after years of being told what to do and what to think, he doesn't seem to be able to do so totally on his own.

Rest easy. There IS no counter-BOrg. Your friend will eventually branch out.

Joyzabel

Redhorse Woman,
Your post was very well put. I agree. IMHO j2bf

biblexaminer

I read alot of the posts here. It's obvios to me that edward gentry is jealous of Ray Franz.

Sorry, it's that Foydian in me. Gotta tellitlikeitis.

If gentry would sit down and start writing today, then one day, maybe, somebody would love him too!

edward gentry

aha!
the last entry has hit the button. he is right, i am jealous.
I see that now. Actually I knew it before I started the string.
I want to be the world authority on jw deception.But Ray baby is.
Why?
Because he was on the GB.
My entire original point.
His Borg authority carries over into anti borg authority.]
Can we doubt that St Pauls fame as a persecutor of the church transferred into fame and authority once he joined the church?
Other than that, overall, i must conceed the arguement, seeing that all of you love raymonds books and they have been so beneficial to you.
I reconsider, I conceed the point.
Raymonds books should NOT be burnt.

Actually, Ive been unable to get on the board for ages,(the past hour and a half), after reading Thomas Pooles comment my accessline collapsed!
His God silenced my lying lips.!
However,I see no reason to reverence his God. He has never answered ANY of my prayers no matter how much I wept and supplicated.

larc

Hey Edie Baby,

Write a book about your own miserable experiences as a JW. If you are a good writer, it will sell. Many great novelist's first work was an autobiography. Many lowly people have written great works. One of the greatest works in Sociology was written by Eric Hoffer, a formally uneductated long shoreman. Read his book, The True Believer, if you haven't already. You will be impressed.

I really believe that the first person who writes a book about what it is like to be of the rank and file Witnesses could have a best seller if it is done right. It is not the station in life that leads to a great book, but the mind of the author who gets the story on paper.

ISP

Edward,

Ray has all his ducks in a row. References to articles and letters...most of which we would not have access to. IMO he does not try to seek followers.

ISP

Marilyn

Of course it's those who were closest to cults (and their leaders) who write the best material against them. Who the hell besides those who've been dupped by them gives a rats arse about them?

By your reasoning, practising JWs shouldn't listen to people who've left the Organization, because we're still slaves to it. ?????

I've always been curious about how JW leaders denounce in the media anything said by ex members - because they are "disgruntled or have an axe to grind". Mmmm, yes, so? They may be a little jaundice, but they're bound to have the best dirt associated with those in the know!!!

Marilyn

JT

Edward says:

"I want to be the world authority on jw deception"

##########

just wondering Ed -- did you serve in any position within your congregation, Pioneer, MS. Elder, etc

just wondering based on how you ripped into Ray?

thanks

james

burn your Ray Franz books

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