NOah's flood - free choice etc, Need some counter answers

by wherehasmyhairgone 11 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  wherehasmyhairgone

  Although i don't believe any more, Noah's ark was always my favourite story (sick really!) anyway...

  I want some counter argument to this problem i see with the story

  Gods words, ..he is going to bring a flood to get rid of all the wicked people.

  God gave Noah dimension for the ark.

  So before Noah built the ark, God already knew that no one but Noah and crew would survive. So we come into a free will issue, as there wasn't enough room on the ark for say 2000 people plus the animals.

  OK so , before Noah time generation were born God knew they were going to die in the flood, so instead of them not being born, he allowed them to be born knowing full well that were going to be killed.

  Next problem, God brought the flood to destroy wicked mankind... Noah and kin left... 120 years Bad people everywhere again and he uses Babel this time...

  So.... Before the flood God knew only Noah was going to be save, and that his Plan to rid the world of wicked mankind, was going to fail, as just 120 odd year after the flood he has the babel problem.

  So for one minute lets say somehow we have free will... But God know what we are going to do ahead of time as he lives outside of time...i know HUGE leaps of assumptions here.

  Then the garden of Eden was point less as he already knew

  The flood was pointless as he knew it wouldn't help matters

  all the killing to establish Israel as a nation was pointless as he knew they would reject him anyway.

  IN fact Armageddon is the thing he knew we has going to need to do before he even started,.. now if you say ahh well God is giving us a free choice, is he already knows the outcome, then who's benefit is it to live under him? he know our action before we are born...

  So all the killing in the OT is of no point. and the flood was a wasted expertise. I don't see the point of the flood every happening.

  I am not looking for a argument, but i am interested in responses as to the point of the OT if it were real. I always try and thin like a JW when pondering these things, but these i got really stuck on, so hopefully you guys can help out. I just can't see the why it happened, as God clearly stated his purpose,, so the old line of We don't always understand God plan, isn't relevant here.
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  Robert7

  Wow... you brought up an angle I never thought about. Even IF many repented, the ark physically coundn't handle the volumes of people. Another reason to prove this is just a myth.
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  OnTheWayOut

  I have no answers for you, but I have more of the same problems.

  God didn't destroy Adam and Eve instantly, even though he promised they would die in the day
  they ate from the fruit. Even though WTS says God balanced his love, justice, wisdom, and
  mercy perfectly, God made it appear that the snake was telling the truth. To this day, it appears
  that the snake was telling the accurate truth.

  The WTS uses the book of Job to explain some grand court case Jehovah is waging. From the
  beginning when the sovereignty of God was challenged, God allowed things to play out so that
  He could prove His right to rule and that His rule was best. The problem is that God kept changing
  the rules and the conditions. Examples:
  1. Adam and Eve banished from the garden when they disobey. Maybe that fits with choosing their
  own destiny rather than obedience to God, but the birth pains had nothing to do with the issue.
  2. God wipes out all the life on earth except for those on the ark. Suppose through wickedness that
  men finally learned it wasn't going to work, and men changed on their own. Just suppose.
  3. Man was collaborating all his efforts. There was no telling what men might accomplish until, BAM!
  God doesn't like that they are collaborating and scatters them across the globe with different
  languages. What great medical/scientific/philosophical answers might the people have come out
  with at Babel?
  4. Sodom and Gommorah wiped out.
  5. The land of Cannaan, wiped out in favor of God's people. I thought we were letting people rule
  themselves.
  6. God gives his people a complicated set of rules where most violations lead to death. So how is this
  a comparison with "worldly" self-rule? God says look how my servants obey.
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  serotonin_wraith

  Try this video too Where...

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8skWLh80Lp8

  If this is all part of God's plan, then he created us knowing full well we'd sin. It's no good to say it's our choice either. We were CREATED this way! CREATED TO SIN!
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  inkling

  God gave Noah dimension for the ark.

  So before Noah built the ark, God already knew that no one but Noah and crew would survive. So we come into a free will issue, as there wasn't enough room on the ark for say 2000 people plus the animals.

  ooooo heres an idea:

  If they truly repented, and trusted noah's preaching, God would have let them build thier own boats!

  i'm just saying...

  [ink]
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  wherehasmyhairgone

  I actually thought about the building of extra boats , i wish i had put that into the original post... but....

  If other had built boats it still doesn't get away from the fact that god not only knew he was going to bring a flood, but also the plan has going to fail, as wickedness was everywhere again with a few hundred year.

  See if God had left us to our devices after Eden, then one could argue maybe a free choice plan, but the fact he interfered, shows me one of 2 things

  1) either God doesnt know the future and isn't all powerful

  2) does know the future and our paths, which makes serving God and this life meaningless, as the choice is already known. So who's benefit is living pre -armageddon for...certainly not us, he could just allow to be born those who he knew would choose his way. and Satan couldn't argue that as God could merely show him what would happen....like he did with showing him his demise.

  So on the flood issue, the flood accomplished nothing, and in fact did more harm than good if you believe it. Th eproblem is God stated his plan for the flood, and if his plans are perfect, then the flood shoul dhave sorted it out and it didn't.
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  inkling

  I guess the only place to go from there is that God KNEW it would not actually solve anything, but he did it anyway...

  Maybe to tell us somthing? A object lesson? Something forshadowing armageddon?

  At that point, why does it need to be REAL? Would'nt it work just as well as a myth?

  [inkling]
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  The Oracle

  great points onthewayout,

  and good original post by ...oops, I forget your name...sorry!

  I am afraid to say, the flood account as described in the bible did not happen. It was simply not possible.

  This is one of the accounts in the bible that can be adequately disproved using the scientific method. It takes a tremendous leap of faith to believe that it could have actually happened, because you also need to believe that several additional miracels took place that were not even described in the bible - and the these additional miracles really don't make any sense. For example why would God miraculously transport certain animals to distant islands and not allow them to reproduce on the way over? As democratic presidential candidate Edwars would say - It dudn't make any sense..

  The Oracle
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  wherehasmyhairgone

  I am afraid to say, the flood account as described in the bible did not happen. It was simply not possible.

  I agree 100% It was one of the things that conveince me of the myth status of this story. However My point was to thrash out the 'choice' question with the flood.

  As the flood is such a major event in the bible it stands to reason to ask ..why, and my old JW thinking hat, couldn't come up with an answer to this, hence the posting.

  I guess what is forming as the main issue is that it sorted nothing, and 'he' (god) must have known that. So his reason for doing it was pointless.

  Failing this I might well attend the local JW meeting and wait to be asked afterwards about attending then hit them with the question.
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  moshe

  The problem with the flood story is that Jesus spoke of it as a real event. If it was not, then Jesus was as clueless as all the rest of mankind of that time period, ergo- he had no divine knowledge of anything. That is the crux of the problem with the flood story.- Which opens up another can of worms.