19th century century Prophets could our Mormon friends comment

by barry 16 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • barry
    barry

    Ive just been listening on utube to learn about Joseph Smith and Im wondering how our Mormon friends view Joseph. Qcmbr, Susanhere and others.

    I saw on th emovie how Joseph had a vison of Moroni and Joseph was supprised Moroni was white and said he was a Jew. Jews happen to have dark skin like Greeks or lebonese people they are semetic while the American Indians are of the mongolian race.Two different races altogether.

    I also saw on the movie how Joseph translated the plates by putting them in a hat with the two stones and waiting for the light to come so he could translate to the writer.

    When the writer hid the orininal transcript God got very angry with Joseph and said he would not allow him to translate from Lehi anymore and future translations would be from Levi. How convenient both books were the same account just happen to be written slightly different wording.

    I would like to know if you Mormons accually beleive this bull... and if as a church their are many dissenters?

    Im an SDA [Seventh day Adventist ]and we have a Prophet Ellen White who has also some baggage such as plagerising materal from other writers including Joseph and contradicting the bible by supporting the early Adventists with their erronious doctrine of the investigative judgement and the events surrounding 1844. The doctrine flys in the face of the protestant gospel of righteousness by faith and so many Adventists teach just the same as the roman church on Justification. .

    Ellen White beleive the black races were an amalgamation of humans breeding with animals.

    Ellen White was no where as colourful as Joseph she spent most of her time telling other people where they were wrong and said it was from god and telling them not to play cricket and ride bicycles.

  • zeroday
    zeroday

    Joseph Smith is revered by Mormons as a Prophet of God. His first vision has changed a number of times as to who he actually saw. He did not put the plates in a hat he put a seer stone in the hat and put his face over the hat and the words would appear and he would read them and Oliver Crowdery would write them down. No one but Smith ever saw the gold plates. Oliver took the first 116 pages home to show his wife and she knew they were a fraud and stole them. Since the BOM was a product of Smith's imagination he could not retranslate them word for word so conviently God gave him a revelation not to retranslate them. Smith was charged and convicted some years before of "Glass Looking" he would put a seer stone in his hat and tell people where buried treasures were for a price...

  • Qcmbr
    Qcmbr

    I've met white skinned Jews but that's a whole different story. Your point about skin colour is a bit naff IMO.

    Moroni appeared as an angel - we have no records as far as I'm aware of any angels who are considered white skinned due to race - it is because they are supposedly 'producing' light:

    (New Testament | Revelation 1:14 - 15)
    14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
    15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace

    (Pearl of Great Price | JS-History 1:17)
    17 ... When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description,

    and of Moroni:

    (Pearl of Great Price | JS-History 1:31 - 32)
    31 He had on a loose robe of most exquisite whiteness. It was a whiteness beyond anything earthly I had ever seen; nor do I believe that any earthly thing could be made to appear so exceedingly white and brilliant. His hands were naked, and his arms also, a little above the wrist; so, also, were his feet naked, as were his legs, a little above the ankles. His head and neck were also bare. I could discover that he had no other clothing on but this robe, as it was open, so that I could see into his bosom.
    32 Not only was his robe exceedingly white, but his whole person was glorious beyond description, and his countenance truly like lightning. The room was exceedingly light, but not so very bright as immediately around his person.

    I doubt that such notions of Scandinavian white(pink!?) skin are really the issue here.

    Joseph Smith's translation of the plates was indeed unusual not simply for how it was done but because of the speed and consistency of his output - if he did make it up it is remarkable - you need to put this in context - a person in their young twenties who is a farmer writes an epic religious story that no one has yet come close to replicating. It describes several different cultures in detail that is logical and agrees with cultures of the times described, it doesn't make any yet proven mistakes in placing of people, locations or technologies ( a mean feat considering that it was written so long ago.) It is arguably consistent with the bible (there will always be areas that can be shown to disagree since the bible is itself internally inconsistent and contextually framed.) It describes guerilla warfare and exactly how to defeat it, it contains tactical battleplans, records for governing people, laws, monetary systems, hebrew idioms, chiasmus, consistent hebrew names, cultural phrasing and so on.. if Jospeh didn't write it someone very, very clever did. If Jospeh made it up then he's a genius and an extremely lucky one at that.

    (Pearl of Great Price | JS-History Note:1)
    Oliver Cowdery describes these events thus: "These were days never to be forgotten—to sit under the sound of a voice dictated by the inspiration of heaven, awakened the utmost gratitude of this bosom! Day after day I continued, uninterrupted, to write from his mouth, as he translated with the Urim and Thummim, or, as the Nephites would have said, 'Interpreters,' the history or record called 'The Book of Mormon.'

    Why didn't Joseph show them to more than the witnesses? (i.e. forget the lie about no one else seeing them.)

    (Pearl of Great Price | JS-History 1:59 - 60)
    59 At length the time arrived for obtaining the plates, the Urim and Thummim, and the breastplate. On the twenty-second day of September, one thousand eight hundred and twenty-seven, having gone as usual at the end of another year to the place where they were deposited, the same heavenly messenger delivered them up to me with this charge: that I should be responsible for them; that if I should let them go carelessly, or through any neglect of mine, I should be cut off; but that if I would use all my endeavors to preserve them, until he, the messenger, should call for them, they should be protected.
    60 I soon found out the reason why I had received such strict charges to keep them safe, and why it was that the messenger had said that when I had done what was required at my hand, he would call for them. For no sooner was it known that I had them, than the most strenuous exertions were used to get them from me. Every stratagem that could be invented was resorted to for that purpose. The persecution became more bitter and severe than before, and multitudes were on the alert continually to get them from me if possible.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_116_pages explains this adequately - the pages where stolen - think about it - why would they be stolen? If Jospeh repeats the translation word for word what would the thief do? Is it possible nay probable that they would alter the original and then release it proving that Jospeh was a fraud. Jospeh was in an almost impossible position.Retranslate and be 'proven' false or wait for direction from God on what to do. Even if you think he was a fraud the 'solutio' was brilliant and unfortunately for doubters they were left unable to do more than whinge - nobody seems to focus on WHY someone would steal them in the first place.

    Are there plenty of dissenters. Absolutely. Jesus had a similar problem.

    (New Testament | John 6:66 - 68)
    66 ¶ From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
    67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
    68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

    As for do Mormons believe this bull - well er yes - why/or do you believe the 'bull' YOU listed about the SDAs? Me I don't know what the SDAs believe so I wouldn't suggest it is bull.

    As for Jospeh Smith himself - you can throw as many verbal brick bats as you like but lets be honest he whips your sorry arse (and mine) for achievements, he built cities, ran for president, had a private army, produced several books of scripture that are believed by millions, created a cultural people who love education, country and family, he organised the first women's organisation, advocated many utterly novel religious ideas, was accepted by many as a prophet, has recorded instances of performing miracles, has more recorded fulfilled prophecies than ANY prophet, ran (unsuccessfully) a bank, wrote very moving words and finally died for his beliefs. Most frauds don't end up providing extremelly good fruits to their labours. On evidence of personal achievement alone JS whips any other self-procalimed religious leaders of the last two hundred years.


    Do I believe? - some.

  • zeroday
    zeroday
    As for Jospeh Smith himself - you can throw as many verbal brick bats as you like but lets be honest he whips your sorry arse (and mine) for achievements, he built cities, ran for president, had a private army, produced several books of scripture that are believed by millions, created a cultural people who love education, country and family, he organised the first women's organisation

    And he also had 30 plus wives some that were already married to other men what inspiration...

  • frankiespeakin
    frankiespeakin

    Zero,

    And he also had 30 plus wives some that were already married to other men what inspiration

    .

    Well lets not fault him over that, the whole one husband one wife thingy, is very arbitrary and definately not written in stone(or should I say Gold tablets) morally speaking, while those who have been preprogrammed by culture or religion seem to think so.

    But yes the seer stone thingy and not allowing any one to see the Gold tablets,, reeks with dishonesty that only a mind controlled person or very small child(easiest time to start indoctrinating is when young because they trust older people to be right) would beleive.

  • zeroday
    zeroday
    Well lets not fault him over that, the whole one husband one wife thingy, is very arbitrary and definately not written in stone

    I just had a revelation your wife must lay with me as my wife, send her over or be smitten...

  • frankiespeakin
    frankiespeakin

    Zero,

    What do you have to trade for one of my GFs, maybe one might be agreable.

  • zeroday
    zeroday

    I will give you the pick of someone elses wife the hot one...hey I only have 30 wives with none to spare...

  • frankiespeakin
    frankiespeakin

    Zero,

    Well I hardly know you, maybe in the future we can work something out.

    Anyway I was thinking of being a Morman and getting some of those cute mormon girls, about how many women I can take proper sexual care of I don't know? Maybe somewhere around 3-6 it all depends how young and horny they are, women when they hit thier 30's are the horniest so I should space it out age wise get 2 in thier 30's and maybe 2 in their 20's that's 4 total and I will alway have room for one more maybe a nice mature one to kinda keep things in order, and keep me post as to who's turn it is to be with me today or tonight if not I can always get a big giant calender that way I will alway make the rounds fairly.

  • barry
    barry

    Gday Qcmbr,

    Hope you and youre family have a very merry xmas and thanks for the reply so soon.

    The reason I brought up the issue on the white skin of Moroni is because Joseph Smith asked Moroni why he had white skin to which Moroni replyed that originally all the native peoples of north America had white skin but it was made red by God because they rebelled.

    I would still like an answer to how can the American Indians be the offspring of the Jewish people when they are of different races one mongolian the other semetic?

    I dont dought Joseph Smith was a smart bloke but there are many smart people around.

    No I dont beleive SDA nonsense or bull about the SDA Prophet Ellen White and dont beleive her words should be used to interpret scripture as some SDAs use her writings. I beleive the only way someone claiming spiritual gifts should be tested in subjection the scripture or else we end up in a mental loop with no way of finding truth.

    Barry

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