by vlad 47 Replies latest watchtower bible
Mondo1: The text says:
"into heaven."
To assume that he was swept away up into the sky only to be relocated to somewhere else on earth, is...not just unlikely, it is impossible. If the author had meant to say that Elijah was relocated, then that is what he would have said. There is no way the writer would have brought up heaven if he meant that he was just relocated. When it comes to eschatology, I don`t think the jews were that big on "relocation", if you know what I mean.
Hellrider,
The author simply does not comment. He says only that Elijah was taken into heaven, what specifying what exactly "heaven" was and what happened from then on. So my interpretation is not ruled out by anything in the text, and in fact is supported by the semantic range of the word "heaven". Your view, however, is ruled out by the words of Jesus in John 3. Would you care to offer another view that is in harmony with Jesus' words?
Please see this earlier post of mine which shows how the concept of postmortem fiery torment in this parable fits into the scope of early Jewish and Christian writings. It was practically a leitmotif in the apocalyptic literature as well as references to it elsewhere in admonitions and the like: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/134604/2396862/post.ashx#2396862
Did anyone else read Leo, earlier post? It really has a lot of detail and worth noting. I will need to print this old post out!
Well how many WT did people read where they quoted from other books and said it explained historical events but was not inspired by God? I found the book of Enoch in I believe Eternal Life book that I studied. and Macabees was explain it was historical. So she might have something worth reading!
The author simply does not comment. He says only that Elijah was taken into heaven, what specifying what exactly "heaven" was and what happened from then on. So my interpretation is not ruled out by anything in the text, and in fact is supported by the semantic range of the word "heaven".
So heaven can mean either the atmosphere, outerspace, in the clouds, or the realm that the angels live.
How do you know that the word 'heaven' in John 3 isn't refering to 'the atmospere' or 'outer space'?
Observe: "Moreover, no man has ascended into outer space but he that descended from outer space, the Son of man."
Or: "Morever, no man has ascended into the atmosphere but he that descended from the spiritual heaven, the Son of man."
Maybe THAT one is a physical heaven, and the one about Elija is the spiritual one.
Let's see where else we can use this loophole: "10 Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in outer space, also upon earth." Meaning that he will eradicate all life, and the earth will be uninhabited, just like the other planets.
Or if you want to get really crazy: In Revelation when it says that the 144,000 are going to heaven, it acctually means 'outer space' and not the spirit realm, thus we know that someday NASA is going to send a colony of 144,000 people to another planet, and they will build a paradise. (While there is a war on Earth.)
Would you care to offer another view that is in harmony with Jesus' words?
You can make the Bible say WHATEVER you want. If you apply the same reasoning to the scripture in John INSTEAD of the one in 2 Kings, then you can believe that Elijah went to the spirit realm and that Jesus went wherever it was you thought Elijah went. Or he passed through the clouds on his way to GET to the spirit realm. Therefore no conflict.
So this scripture is talking about a physical heaven: "(John 3:13) 13 Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man."
And this scripture is talking about the spiritual heaven: "(2 Kings 2:11) 11 And it came about that as they were walking along, speaking as they walked, why, look! a fiery war chariot and fiery horses, and they proceeded to make a separation between them both; and E?li'jah went ascending in the windstorm to the heavens. "
That is now in harmony with Jesus' words. If you have a problem with the logic, take it up with your previous posts, because it's yours... simply applied to a different scripture.
Lore
Lol, nice LtCmd, you`re showing him the logical conclusion to all his loopholes. I was thinking the same thing, but I`m not gonna bother anymore with someone that has a lawyer-approach to the Bible, as he is (in true Watchtowe-fashion) will just come up with new (no matter how bizarre !!!) loopholes to your (logical) arguments. It just gets boring. Anyway, anyone with a real understanding of the Bible can tell that he is full of ..(you know what).
These arguments are frankly pathetic. We know that the heaven that Jesus came from is the spirit realm, for he dwelt there with the Father (John 17:5). So that rules out such a place for Elijah. Wanna try again?
Didn't both Russell and Rutherford teach that the place of the eternal throne of God was in the Pleiades (particularly the star Alcycone)?
These arguments are frankly pathetic.
I agree, but they are based on YOUR arguments
We know that the heaven that Jesus came from is the spirit realm, for he dwelt there with the Father (John 17:5). So that rules out such a place for Elijah. Wanna try again?
How does Jesus being in heaven prevent Elijah from going to heaven? Don't they get along?
Unless you are still talking about the scripture in John.
Let me explain that AGAIN: "13 Moreover, no man has ascended into [Earthly] heaven but he that descended from [Spiritual] heaven, the Son of man."
Jesus DID ascend into the clouds/earthly-heaven correct?
Jesus DID descend from the spiritual-heaven correct?
Where is the error in that interpretation?
Lore
Mondo,
It seems to me that heaven is spiritual when JWs want it to be and something else when they don't. For example, what is their take on Acts 1:11?
Lore,
The issue is that you have no exegetical basis for finding Jesus to be speaking of two different heavens. It is plain to all readers that the same heaven that Jesus came from is the one that he is saying that no man has gone to. Beyond that, as Elijah was seen going into the earthly heavens, such an interpretation is ruled out, for the chariot carried him up into the air. Thus, as I have said, Elijah did not go to the spirit realm, but into the sky (heaven) and then, naturally, to another place on the earth.
