Claims about decreasing donations. (page 3)

WTWizard

It is a very simple proposition. Donations usually go up in organizations that are creating enough value to justify it. People will tend to donate according to how much value they actually get out of the organization, and if they are getting lots of value from it, there will tend to be a lot of donations. There will always be freeloaders, but generally if one is getting a lot of real value from an organization, they will donate more. And it will be easier to get them to all the sessions, and get new ones in. Milling around during the program will automatically go down, since they are getting more value by paying attention.

The flip side is, if the organization is not creating any real value, then people are going to stint. then it becomes necessary to use guilt and hounding to coerce more donations out of people. They then need to resort to fraud, such as setting up deficits on purpose so people will donate more at the end. And since there is no real value, people are going to be more inclined to blow it off or mill around, often creating disturbances, since there is no real opportunity cost in doing so. The "Quiet" signs then become necessary.

Eventually, they are going to get the donations they deserve. Since they are not creating any real value, people are not going to put any money in the box without the Tower initiating the use of force and fraud. And once the false promises wear off, people will not donate any more. I cannot blame people for this: My message to the Watchtower Society is simple. If you want your money to keep coming, then you are going to have to start creating value for those in attendance. Money will come in without initiating the use of fraud (the false promises and the artificial deficits) and force (that is, guilt). The side effect of this will be higher attendance, more people coming in without having to waste thousands and tens of thousands of hours per new recruit, people paying more attention, and less effect of these apostate Web sites. And, if the money comes in from creating value, it will keep coming as long as the value creation goes on.

MadTiger

The Utility Theory of WT Donations

Love that post. Spot on.

TheListener

For the last 5-10 years certain COs have mentioned donations being low on a congregational level.

One measure of health sometimes used is to review the amount of literature received by the congregation and the amount of money donated for the worldwide work. Doing that, many congregations have found that they don't even donate enough to cover the basic literature they are receiving much less extra or money from anyone they meet in the field ministry.

Congregations can do this analysis using the old costs of similar or same literature or they can just state that they receive the same literature as when prices were charged and compare the amount of donations. Either way congregations keep coming up short.

The problem I see is that the WTS keeps doing separate requests for money. For example, the circuit overseer car insurance fund or special money to build a local assembly hall, etc etc. The friends may respond to this specific request but the money comes from somewhere - that somewhere is usually the general worldwide work fund.

If you're still active in a congregation try asking the secretary if the congregation contributes as much as it used to for the literature that it receives. Of course, they may not like you nosing around about it. You know, Jehovah will take care of it.

neverendingjourney

proplog:

What are you trying to prove? What's your point? You are guilty of the same thing you're accusing everyone else of: drawing conclusions without any proof. But instead of using the very strong circumstantial evidence to form a reasonable conclusion, you are coming to the opposite conclusion. What gives?

If I hear that Wal-Mart is closing 5,000 stores nationwide, is laying off employees all over the place and raising their prices, does it make any sense to conclude that they are not having financial difficulties? Quite frankly, your analysis makes no sense. Are you being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative or do you actually believe that donations are not decreasing?

metatron

Perhaps we need to be a little more exact as to what the Watchtower is experiencing. A simple

reading of the yearly stats tells you that they have a problem : generally, their growth comes from

poor countries and their cash flow comes from rich countries. They might have stable donations

in some developed nations - but stability may not be enough.

As to economic changes, let's list them:

No more food service at assemblies

No more magazine subscriptions, including the US

Paperback books ( which Knorr hated - and which I know were carefully calculated to save $ per

book, as per a pressroom Bethelite)

One Awake per month ( and fewer, total per month)

Smaller calendars

Mass layoffs of Bethelites

Selling off Brooklyn buildings

Selling off printing and bindery equipment

Soon, one public Watchtower per month ( and likely fewer total WTs per month)

Lower contributions for magazines and literature as observed by countless account servants

soon after the 'voluntary donation' arrangement.( me included)

If any worldly corporation did these things, the explanation would undoubtedly be economic.

Only the Watchtower's 'spin' on the subject prevents Witnesses from concluding otherwise.

metatron

proplog2

Neverending: I definitely am arguing here but not because I am argumentative. I think people speak as authorities on matters they know very little about. The presumption that the Watchtower is going under financially is not based on much fact. It is mostly heresay. Some have said they were involved in the Watchtower finances or know someone who is. Until you come up with figures the so-called "facts" are empty.

The Watchtower has always given the appearance of frugality. Kingdom halls were just "halls". Missionaries had to take ocean freighters to their assignments instead of planes. They made their own ink, soap, cereal. Used slave (voluntary slaves) labor.

My point is not to be argumentative but also not to be gullible. The Watchtower finances is an area where everyone is celebrating the demise of the Watchtower - and snatching pieces of rumors here and there to portray "their" hopeful vision of an organization in decay.

Blondie, did I read your zeroes corectly? That the annual cost of operating and maintaining a building equals the cost of building it? With all respect to your expertise I don't believe you can substantiate that claim at all.

I do think that WTWizard has it right. That as long as the organization is perceived by its members to be providing good value they will pay the piper to dance. However, there is a point in the very near future where the value perception WILL suffer. Like 2014.

neverendingjourney

As I've said before, the facts that you are looking for are not available to the general public. That doesn't mean that a very strong case cannot be made that the Watchtower is not in as strong an economic position as it has been in the past. A person can be convicted of murder in a court of law with circumstantial evidence only. Circumstantial evidence doesn't make it a fact, but it's valuable evidence nonetheless.

I don't assert anything about their financial situation as fact. That would clearly be a misrepresentation. However, the anecdotal and circumstantial evidence all swing in favor of a weakened financial position for the Watchtower. Just exactly how badly they're hurting is another matter. That's harder to determine.

If your point is that people shouldn't speak about these matters as absolute facts, then you make a valid point. But there is no evidence on your side if you're trying to argue that the Watchtower is in a strong financial position. That position could only be based upon pure conjecture on your part

neverendingjourney

As I've said before, the facts that you are looking for are not available to the general public. That doesn't mean that a very strong case cannot be made that the Watchtower is not in as strong an economic position as it has been in the past. A person can be convicted of murder in a court of law with circumstantial evidence only. Circumstantial evidence doesn't make it a fact, but it's valuable evidence nonetheless.

I don't assert anything about their financial situation as fact. That would clearly be a misrepresentation. However, the anecdotal and circumstantial evidence all swing in favor of a weakened financial position for the Watchtower. Just exactly how badly they're hurting is another matter. That's harder to determine.

If your point is that people shouldn't speak about these matters as absolute facts, then you make a valid point. But there is no evidence on your side if you're trying to argue that the Watchtower is in a strong financial position. That position could only be based upon pure conjecture on your part

proplog2

Neverendingjourney:

If your point is that people shouldn't speak about these matters as absolute facts, then you make a valid point.

That is my point. I have no sides in the argument. I wouldn't begin to say for sure what the Watchtower finances are.

It is part of the knee-jerk OVER-reaction that makes people think that this has any substance. It may in the future. It is worth watching - but be slow about concluding anything.

proplog2

Blondie, did I read your zeroes corectly? That the annual cost of operating and maintaining a building equals the cost of building it? With all respect to your expertise I don't believe you can substantiate that claim at all.

Claims about decreasing donations.

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