bennyk, I'm fascinated. What's your thinking? Did the Society forget about the earthly sheep? Or did they say those of Matthew were the same as those in John? Or is there an article where they tie it together that we haven't found?
Sheep, other sheep, other other sheep, Three classes of sheep?
by garybuss 67 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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garybuss
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uninformed
Gary,
Just ran across this today, and it looks like you have a plethora of comments and answers to the question, but I had a suggestion that may help us all understand the WT use of the "little flock", "other sheep" and just regular sheep.
First, there are only two classes of sheep. Dead sheep and live sheep. The live sheep survive armageddon, the dead sheep will be resucitated. When Jesus picks from among both of those groups who will survive, picture him examining the sheep, and pointing, ---"I'll take, ewe, ewe and ewe. But not ewe, ewe or you." That simplifies the process.
With regard to the heavenly 'little flock", they aren't nor ever have been sheep. They are geese. The already have wings and are used to heaven in a sense and since a flock of geese is usually small, they are the little flock. I can't help but gaggle as I write this.
Your friend,
Brant
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garybuss
Okay now we got three kinds of sheep, two kinds of goats and a gaggle of geese. We're one pig short of a dad gum farm.
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bennyk
bennyk, I'm fascinated. What's your thinking? Did the Society forget about the earthly sheep? Or did they say those of Matthew were the same as those in John? Or is there an article where they tie it together that we haven't found?
Russell believed in nearly universal redemption. At that time the Watch Tower Society taught that almost everyone will have a resurrection -- only the truly incorrigible would not (Heb. 6: 4-8; 10: 26-30). True Christians (both "Little Flock" [AKA "Bride Class" bzw. 144 000] and the "Great Company") were to receive a resurrection to heavenly life; all others were to be brought back in an earthly resurrection and be tested in the Millennium. They were teaching that the Sheep of both Matthew 25 and John 10 (spec. "Other Sheep") were a single earthly class.
OTHER SHEEP NOT OF THIS FOLD, WTR pages 4784, 4785 (Entire article):
"Other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I
must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall
be one fold and one Shepherd."--John 10:16. DURING the Gospel Age the Lord has but one Church, one flock who follow him. "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me." (John 10:27.) From the very first there has been no change in the Lord's flock, either in the terms of discipleship or in the reward promised; as we read, "Ye are called in one hope of your calling."--Eph. 4:4.
The "other sheep" evidently refer to others who will become the Lord's followers under different conditions and under a different call from that which has gone forth during the Gospel Age. The present flock are called upon to sacrifice the earthly nature and become partakers, with the Master and Shepherd, of the divine nature. (Rom. 12:1,2; 2 Tim. 2:11,12; 2 Pet. 1:3,4.) The Lord's flock of the future will not be invited to sacrifice and to a change of nature, but will, on the contrary, be privileged to maintain and retain the human nature; and by obedience will gradually, step by step, experience Restitution to perfection of mind and body and morals, lost through sin in Eden and redeemed by the great Sacrifice at Calvary. These are not now of the "flock," for they are not invited to the divine nature and a heavenly mansion, but will be invited to earthly nature and Paradise restored during the reign of Messiah. "WHEN HE WHO IS OUR LIFE APPEARS WE SHALL
APPEAR WITH HIM"
These other sheep are particularly mentioned by our Master in Matt. 25:31-46. This parable of "the sheep and the goats" belongs, not to this Age--the Gospel Age --but to the coming Age--during the Messianic reign. The introduction of the parable (vs. 31) shows this, saying, "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy messengers with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory, and before him shall be gathered all nations; and he shall separate them one from another as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats."
The Savior has not yet appeared in his glory, and the promise is that "When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye [the Church, the sheep of the present Age] also appear with him in glory." (Col. 3:4.) In a word, the overcoming "sheep" of the Gospel Age will be associated with the Great Shepherd in his work of dealing with the world of mankind during his reign. Then all mankind will be on judgment or trial, to be tested with a view to proving who will develop the sheep-like disposition, and who will develop the goat-like disposition.
THE DIVIDING OF THE SHEEP WILL BE IN PROGRESS
DURING THE MESSIANIC REIGN During that thousand years all who develop the spirit of obedience will be accepted as members of the Shepherd's flock, on the right hand of favor, as worthy of eternal life; and at the close of that Dispensation will hear his words, "Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world."--Vs. 34.
Those of the contrary spirit who, under the favorable conditions of that glorious time, will fail to develop the characteristics of the Lord's sheep--gentleness, meekness, love--will be accounted unworthy of eternal life, unworthy of being considered among the Lord's sheep. By that time these will have taken their places on his left hand of disfavor. Then will they be rejected. The sheep class will abide in the Lord's favor and be granted an abundant entrance into everlasting life; while the goat class will be rejected as unworthy of eternal life and will be sent away to experience his disfavor of everlasting punishment.
That punishment, however, will not be everlasting torture, but everlasting death--a death which will last through all eternity; for the Lord will not again become a sacrifice, nor will he offer further opportunity to those rejecting the Divine arrangement during that glorious reign. As in the parable a goat is used to symbolize those who are contrary to the Lord, so fire is used as a symbol of the destruction which will come upon the goat class. Fire is the most destructive agency known and is fitly used to symbolize destruction. Verse 46 of this parable might very properly be read, "These shall go away into everlasting cutting off (Greek, kolasin), [from life], but the righteous into life eternal," -
garybuss
You wrote: "They were teaching that the Sheep of both Matthew 25 and John 10 (spec. "Other Sheep") were a single earthly class."
Doesn't it look like the Society still takes the view that they are one and the same? -
bennyk
You wrote: "They were teaching that the Sheep of both Matthew 25 and John 10 (spec. "Other Sheep") were a single earthly class."
Doesn't it look like the Society still takes the view that they are one and the same?No; That's the point. Whereas once upon a time the Society taught that they were one single class (earthly hope with final judgment during/after the Millennium), the Society (as of 1997) teaches that the Sheep of Matthew 25 are judged in a final sense to everlasting life before/during Armageddon, viz. before the Millennium. The Society still teaches that the Other Sheep of John 10: 16 are judged in a final sense to eternal life after the Second Test following the Millennium.
*** w97 7/1 pp. 30-31 Questions From Readers ***
Questions From Readers
We were thrilled with our study of Jesus’ parable of the sheep and the goats. In view of the new understanding presented in “The Watchtower” of October 15, 1995, can we still say that Jehovah’s Witnesses today are sharing in a separating work?
Yes. Understandably, many have wondered about this because Matthew 25:31, 32 says: “When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.” The Watchtower of October 15, 1995, showed why these verses apply after the great tribulation begins. Jesus will arrive in his glory with his angels and will sit on his judgment throne. Then, he will separate people. In what sense? He will render decisions based on what people did or did not do before that time.We can compare this to the development of a legal process leading up to a court case. The evidence builds up over an extended period before the court rules and hands down a sentence. The evidence as to whether people now alive will turn out to be sheep or goats has been accumulating for a long time. And it is still coming in. But when Jesus sits on his throne, the case will be complete. He will be ready to render judgment. People will be separated either to everlasting cutting-off or to everlasting life.However, the fact that the separation of people to life(NOTE: not a probationary period) or to death mentioned at Matthew 25:32 is yet future does not mean that no separating, or dividing, occurs before that. The Bible, in Matthew chapter 13, mentions one separation work that occurs earlier. Interestingly, the book United in Worship of the Only True God, pages 179-80, treats this under the heading “Separating of People”. The book says: “There are also other significant events that Jesus prominently associated with the conclusion of the system of things. One of these is the separation of the ‘sons of the kingdom’ from the ‘sons of the wicked one.’ Jesus spoke of this in his parable about a wheat field that an enemy oversowed with weeds.”
The book was referring to Jesus’ illustration set out at Matthew 13:24-30 and explained in verses 36-43. Note in verse 38 that the fine seeds of wheat represent the sons of the Kingdom, but the weeds stand for the sons of the wicked one. Verses 39 and 40 show that in the ‘conclusion of the system of things’—during the time in which we now live—the weeds are collected. They are separated out and finally burned, destroyed.
The illustration deals with anointed Christians (who in the parable of the sheep and the goats are called Jesus’ brothers). Still, the point is clear that a vital separation does occur during our time, with the anointed being distinguished from those who profess to be Christians but who prove themselves to be “sons of the wicked one.”
Jesus provided other examples of people being divided, or separated. Recall that he said concerning the broad road that leads to destruction: “Many are the ones going in through it.” (Matthew 7:13) That was not a comment just about the final outcome. It was a comment about an ongoing development, just as is true now of the few finding the cramped road leading off into life. Recall, too, that when sending out the apostles, Jesus said that they would find some who would be deserving. Others would not be deserving, and the apostles were to shake the dust off their feet “for a witness against” such people. (Luke 9:5) Is it not true that something similar happens as Christians carry on their public ministry today? Some respond well, whereas others reject the divine message that we are bringing.
The articles in The Watchtower dealing with the sheep and the goats noted: “While the judging as described in the parable is in the near future, even now something vital is taking place. We Christians are engaged in a lifesaving work of proclaiming a message that causes a division among people. (Matthew 10:32-39).” In that passage in Matthew chapter 10, we read that Jesus said that following him would be a cause for division—father against son, daughter against mother.
Finally, Christ’s spirit-anointed brothers have spearheaded the worldwide preaching of the Kingdom message. As people hear it and react favorably or unfavorably, they are identifying themselves. We humans cannot, and we should not, say, ‘This person is a sheep; that one a goat,’ in the sense conveyed in Matthew chapter 25. Still, our exposing people to the good news allows them to show where they stand—what they are and how they react to Jesus’ brothers. Hence, like mounting evidence for a court case, the division between those who support Jesus’ brothers and those who refuse to support them is becoming evident. (Malachi 3:18) As The Watchtower showed, Jesus will soon sit on his throne and pronounce sentence, people being judicially separated in a final sense to life or to cutting-off. -
garybuss
Benny, I'm gonna read this over again over the weekend. You have done a lot more research on this than I have and you have read stuff I haven't read. I do have everything you mentioned in my library. I didn't realize all this until you brought it to my attention.
It's gonna take me a little while to catch up with you. Thanks for your patience. -
TD
Greetings Benny,
Actually, it's rather the other way around. Russell believed that the Great Crowd was a heavenly class (though less faithful than the “Bride Class” [144 000]). Rutherford taught the same until 1935, when he identified the Great Crowd as being made up of Other Sheep. The Other Sheep had long been believed an earthly class.
I appreciate your observation and understand your point. It's good to talk to someone else with an interest in the doctrinal history of JW's.
You are quite right. In the Russell era, the "Other Sheep" were understood to be an "Earthly Class" and the "Great Multitude" were understood to be a heavenly class.
I don't think my point was understood though. My comment was specifically in reference to the argument presented in 1935 In the August 1st & 15th issues of The Watchtower, there are pages and pages of Rutherford's bombastic, quasi-syllogistic argumentation in support of the idea that the "Great Multitude" are an earthly class. There is no argument in support of the idea that the "Other Sheep" are an "Earthly Class", not even Russells previous good-natured speculation. (Revelation at least gives an interpreter with a good imagination something to work with, while the Johaninne account is rather bare.)
As I pointed out, the argument that the "Great Multitude" is an "Earthly Class" is used to justify the belief that the "Other Sheep" are an "Earthly Class" and not the other way around. --Although you can clearly see that as you point out, the latter predates the former. (cf. p.231)