Hey everyone,...in your opinion, (1) what scripture or passages in the bible completely go against Jdub doctrine? Scriptures that the dubs really can't answer or really can't fit into their equation,...thus, they go unnoticed or avoided. (2) or,...what scriptural proof should be in the bible to back their doctrinal claims. For example,...there is no commandment in the bible where believers are to attend the memorial as observers but not to partake.
IYO, what r the most problematic scripture(s) for dubs?...or lack there of
by *jeremiah* 20 Replies latest watchtower bible
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jgnat
Here's some show-stoppers I've field tested in the past few years:
Today you will be with me in paradise. (Luke 23:43) A thief is invited to join Jesus in Heaven "today" http://www.soundofgrace.com/piper81/041781.htm
The rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31) Heaven and hell. How did Lazarus get transported to Heaven? http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Luk/Luk016.html#19
Jesus' visit with Moses and Elijah (Luke 9:28-36, Matthew 17:1-13; Mark 9:2-13) If Moses and Elijah were asleep in death waiting for the resurrection, who met with Jesus on the mountain? http://www.biblestudylessons.com/cgi-bin/topics/transfiguration.php
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jgnat
Another one. The JW's claim they only celebrate the holiday Jesus commanded, that is the Memorial of his death. But they completely fail to memorialize another ritual, the foot-washing ceremony. He told the disciples to "14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet. 15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you. Why don't the JW's of today do it?
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ANewLeif
Matthew 28:19, 20 ... if each individual Christian should preach and teach, then each individual Christian should also baptize.
The book of Acts is full of references to what JWs now call "interfaith." The Christians went into the temples and synagogues all the time, listening and teaching.
ANL
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FireNBandits
"Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am Jehovah; and besides me there is no savior." Isaiah 43:10-11 ASV
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god." John 1:1 NWT
"Looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ." Titus 2:13
No explanation needed. -Martin -
Shazard
Do not remember exaclty where in John chapter 5, but Christs words, that everyone have to honor Son as they honor Father. JW even do not speak with Christ, so they can't possibly say, they honor Son as they honor Father. Also Christ atleast in two places sayed "Come to me". JW never come TO Christ, they claim they go through Christ, but how can you go through something without goint TO this something? And one more scriptrue in Acts (probably chapter 19 but not sure) is where Paul says, that Holy Spirit obtained christianst through it's own blood (How can Holy Spirit have blood)?
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Marcel
>> Today you will be with me in paradise. (Luke 23:43) A thief is invited to join Jesus in Heaven "today"
thats a translation thing. jw belief jesus said this: "43 And he said to him: “Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise.”" In fact the original greek scripture dont indicate which version is correct. JW saying in context with other verses which seperate father and son the comma needs to be this way.
>> The rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31) Heaven and hell. How did Lazarus get transported to Heaven?
this is in jw mind a illustration because it is in oppose to other simpler statements regarding the dead.
>> Jesus' visit with Moses and Elijah (Luke 9:28-36, Matthew 17:1-13; Mark 9:2-13) If Moses and Elijah were asleep in death waiting for the resurrection, who met with Jesus on the mountain?
this was a image to show the apostles that jesus was really the important figure (like moses and elijah). in fact both were dead and werent there in person.
>> Another one. The JW's claim they only celebrate the holiday Jesus commanded, that is the Memorial of his death. But they completely fail to memorialize another ritual, the foot-washing ceremony. He told the disciples to "14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet. 15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you. Why don't the JW's of today do it?
the foot washing ceremony wasnt part of the new covenant. and the foot washing was a symbol for servants and that nobodys standing above any other. a lesson in humbleness. not a ritual.
>> Matthew 28:19, 20 ... if each individual Christian should preach and teach, then each individual Christian should also baptize.
this text can be understood twice. i dont see a major reason why every SINGLE jw needs to baptize someone to gain salvation. pretty unpracticle to. it means every new member would need to wait for a new member to baptize. like a chain letter. too much problems to understand it this way.
>> The book of Acts is full of references to what JWs now call "interfaith." The Christians went into the temples and synagogues all the time, listening and teaching.
a JW isnt forbidden to preach to unfaithful people, better: its their duty. but they have to care of their own spirtual health too. witnesses preach to the people where they are. nearly noone is at the center of false religion all day long. no need for the risk.
>> "Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am Jehovah; and besides me there is no savior." Isaiah 43:10-11 ASV
Cant see the problem? since jehovah created jesus and constructed the plan to save mankind hes the only savior. even jesus couldnt do anything without jehovah.
>> "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god." John 1:1 NWT
its written "a god" and not just "god" which makes the difference. jesus is not referenced as god himself, but only with a godly title. since other passages rule out that father and son are one person this has to be meant this way.
>> "Looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ." Titus 2:13
cant see the problem with jw doctrines.
to put it short: if a jw doesnt WANT to doubt he wouldnt do it. the same visceversa: if an outsider doesnt want to believe he wont. -
Deputy Dog
Mat 5:3
"Blessed are those who recognize they are spiritually helpless. The kingdom of heaven belongs to them. -
ANewLeif
Marcel,
I agree that the understanding they apply to Matthew 28:19, 20 is impractical. I was simply stating that since it doesn't make sense to understand that every Christian must baptize others it also doesn't make sense to understand that every Christian must preach to others.
Contextually, the two actions are equivalent in imperative sense. Whoever the responsiblity was placed on became responsible for both actions to an equal degree.
JWs try to separate the two actions, making everyone responsible for part of it and severely restricting who they allow to be responsible for the other part. That is an impossible way to understand the instruction.
A JW is forbidden from sharing in the religious activities of any other faith. The First Century Christians frequently did what JWs are disallowed from doing. Even in reaching unbelievers they are forbidden from sharing any religious observances with them. If a JW today decided to go to a Jewish synagogue for Sabbath services like the apostles did, such a JW would be subjected to a Judicial Committee if their attendance at a false religious service became known.
ANL
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Marcel
ANewLeif,
yes, i think you're right. the problem i see is just that i know how to react to those arguments as a JW. there IS a view to see things different but still somehow convincing. none of the arguments could *impress* an active JW much. no showstopper. they just have an answer which is enough for them to sort the argument out. even if the answer sounds weired to an outsider.