Origins of the stake instead of the Cross

by wab07 20 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • wab07
    wab07

    I have been a member on this site for a few months now and this is my first post. Anyways, my mother is a loyal JW and I often email her asking questions hoping to give rise to contradictions in the her beliefs. I recently asked her when and why the Cross was replaced with the stake. I am posting this for any comments or knowlegdge that I could preach to her with. Thanks.

    Her response: Jehovah's Witnesses stopped using the cross in 1936 when they discovered by intense study of Greek root words and historians that
    the evidence pointed to Jesus dying on an upright beam rather than a two-beamed cross. Here is a quote from The Imperial Bible Dictionary
    (Not a publication of the Witnesses) "The Greek work for cross, stauros, properly signified stake, an upright pole, or piece of
    paling, on which anything might be hung, or which might be used in impaling fencing in a piece of ground. . . Even amongst the Romans the
    crux (from which our cross is derived appears to have been originally an upright pole." --Edited by P. Fairbairn (London, 1974), Vol. I, p.
    376.

    The Bible also uses the word xylon to identify the device used to execute Jesus. Greek-English Lexicon, by Liddell and Scott, defines
    this as meaning: "Wood cut and ready for use, firewood, timber, etc....piece of wood, log beam, post, cudgel, club, stake on which
    criminals were impaled." It cites Acts 5:30 and 10:30 as examples.
    (Oxford, 1968, pp. 1191, 1192)


    The book The Non-Christian Cross by J. D. Parsons (London, 1986), says, "There is not a single sentence in any of the numerous writings
    forming the New Testament, which, in the original Greek, bears even indirect evidence to the effect that the stauros used in the case of
    Jesus was other than an ordinary stauros; much less to the effect that it consisted, not of one peice of timber, but of two pieces nailed
    together in the form of a cross....It is not a little misleading upon the part of our teachers to translate the word stauros as 'cross' when
    rendering the Greek documents of the Church into our native tongue, and to support that action by putting 'cross' in our lexicons as the
    meaning of stauros without carefully explaining that that was at any rate not the primary meaning of the word in the days of the Apostles,
    did not become its primary signification till long afterwards, and became so then, if at all, only because, despite the absence of
    corroborative evidence, it was for some reason or other assumed that the particular stauros upon which Jesus was executed had that
    particular shape." Pp. 23, 24;see also The Companion Bible (London, 1885), Appendix No. 162.


    Then Jared, if you consider the origin of the cross, it is reasonable
    to believe that Jehovah would never be pleased that we take something
    from false pagan religions that he condemned and fuse it into his pure
    worship? I can't quote all of the information so I am going to give
    you references and then maybe you can look up some of this in your
    library at school. These all speak of the origin of the cross and what
    gods they represented.


    Encyclopoedia Britannica,(1946) Vol. 6,p.753

    An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words (London, 1962), W.E.
    Vine, p. 256

    The Cross in Ritual, Architecture, and Art (London, 1900) G. S. Tyack,
    P.1

    The Worship of the Dead ( London, 1904) Colonel J. Garnier, P. 226

    A Short History of Sex-Worship (London, 1940), H. Cutner, pp. 16,17;
    see also The Non-Christian Cross, p. 183

    Scriptural References:
    1 Cor. 10:14
    Ex. 20: 4, 5

    The cross was used in Babylon, the cross was used to symbolize the false god
    Tammuz. In Ezekiel 8:13, 14 the unfaithful Israelites cried over Tammuz and
    Jehovah said that was detestable.

    The New Catholic Encyclopedia - "The representation of Christ's redemptive death
    on Golgotha does not occur in the symbolic art of the first Christian centuries.
    The early Christians, influenced by the Old Testament prohibition of graven images,
    were reluctant to depict even the instrument of the Lord's Passion." (1967) Vol. IV,
    p. 486

    History of the Christian Church says: "There was no use of the crucifix and no materiel
    representation of the cross.: (New York,1897) J.F. Hurst, Vol I, p. 366

  • Zico
    Zico

    Hi wab, welcome to the forum!

    For facts on the cross, you might find the brilliant thread by Leolaia interesting: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/92381/1.ashx

    It's a lot of reading though, if you want something a bit shorter try: http://www.jwfacts.com/index_files/cross.htm

  • jschwehm
  • jwfacts
    jwfacts
    they discovered by intense study of Greek root words and historians that
    the evidence pointed to Jesus dying on an upright beam rather than a two-beamed cross.

    lol. That is the normal Watchtower approach, if you say it loud enough and with enough conviction it must be true.

    The Watchtower argument basically goes "Vines said the word stauros did not mean cross until after Jesus death, so we will ignore all other evidence and run with that."

    However by far the majority of evidence shows that Vines is wrong. Stauros was being used to mean cross prior to Jesus death. Archealogical, scientific, medical and linguistic evidence shows that he did die on a cross.

    My favourite is John 20:25; "unless I see in his hands the print of the nails and stick my finger into the print of the nail s and stick my hand into his side, I will certainly not believe".

    Jesus had nails in this hands. Yet Watchtower pictures always have a nail in this wrists. When I showed that to my 14yo daughter she couldn't believe that JWs don't notice it.

  • A Paduan
    A Paduan

    Many words are used for two (or more) different and often similar things - it is a choice the wtbts made, and it is an appropriate symbol to what they represent - other groups rightly use the cross, as they are inclusive, and not as strictly excluding, or phallic.

    I believe that it actually was a cross, but the historical view is hardly an argument for faith. Christ is where all things meet.

    that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may have power to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge

  • Liza
    Liza

    I've heard about other people crucified by the Romans, and all depictions by historians on them also put them on a cross, so I think it is very likely Jesus was put on a cross too.

  • hubert
    hubert

    Check this site out, for the full context of the Imperial Bible-Dictionary quotes.

    http://members.tripod.com/sosoutreach/phone/crossx.html

    The Watchtower takes the quote "out of context", so they can use it as "evidence" for their claims.

    Hubert

  • AlmostAtheist
    AlmostAtheist

    Wow Hubert, thanks for that link! What a bunch of f****** liars! I shouldn't be surprised anymore when I see the Watchtower's wildly misleading misquotes, but this one still got to me.

    How do they SLEEP at night?!?

    Dave

  • hubert
    hubert

    You're welcome, Dave.

    I have another good link somewhere in my "favorites". I'll look for it and post it when I find it. (Hopefully tonight). If not tonight, I'll find it tomorrow, and bttt this thread.

    By the way, wab07, Welcome to the forum.

    Hubert

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut
    they discovered by intense study of Greek root words and historians that
    the evidence pointed to Jesus dying on an upright beam rather than a two-beamed cross.

    lol. That is the normal Watchtower approach, if you say it loud enough and with enough conviction it must be true.

    jwfacts, excellent post. All of it, I just highlighted the part that grabbed my attention.

    Follow the links, but do your own research on this. Also, don't get so hung up on it.
    This cross/stake issue should not be such a big deal. It's only another example of
    free publicity for WTS by being different. Another example of self-fulfillment of
    "persecution for righteousness' sake."

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