"All of Israel will be saved" vs JW salvation

by *jeremiah* 18 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • *jeremiah*
    *jeremiah*

    It seems as if the JW religion in general has much contempt for Israel. Correctly me if I'm wrong, but,...in short, the JW religion thinks they have become Israel,...."spiritual Israel", anyways. Or, in other words, the blessings and promises for Israel have been transfered to the WTS and it's faithful members.

    Which brings up an interesting question. Does the JW doctrine surrounding this issue set up God as a liar?....I mean, a promise is a promise. Does JW doctrine believe God breaks promises?

    Other than reading OT bible stories to children, the JW's seem to hide God's NT plan for Israel,...from what I can remember anyways.

    Case in point:

    Romans 11
    The Remnant of Israel

    1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 "Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me" [a] ? 4 And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal." [b] 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. [c]

    7 What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8 as it is written:
    "God gave them a spirit of stupor,
    eyes so that they could not see
    and ears so that they could not hear,
    to this very day." [d] 9 And David says:
    "May their table become a snare and a trap,
    a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
    10 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
    and their backs be bent forever." [e]

    Ingrafted Branches

    11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!

    13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

    17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

    22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

    All Israel Will Be Saved

    25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
    "The deliverer will come from Zion;
    he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
    27 And this is [f] my covenant with them
    when I take away their sins." [g]

    28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now [h] receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

    Doxology

    33 Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and [i] knowledge of God!
    How unsearchable his judgments,
    and his paths beyond tracing out!
    34 "Who has known the mind of the Lord?
    Or who has been his counselor?" [j]
    35 "Who has ever given to God,
    that God should repay him?" [k]
    36 For from him and through him and to him are all things.
    To him be the glory forever! Amen

    For my eyes have seen Your salvation which You have prepared before the face of all peoples, a light to bring revelation to the Gentiles, and the glory of Your people Israel ... Behold, this Child is destined for the fall and rising of many in Israel ... ( Luke 2: 30-34)

    These scriptures have to be incredibly confusing in JW land.

    Does anyone know the JW teachings on these or other pro Israel scriptures in the NT?

    Do JW's actually believe that "Israel" mentioned in the above scriptures are referring to themselves?

  • Mary
    Mary
    jeremiah asked: Does anyone know the JW teachings on these or other pro Israel scriptures in the NT? Do JW's actually believe that "Israel" mentioned in the above scriptures are referring to themselves?

    This is an excellent question jeremiah and one that I've asked the elders myself. You are partly correct when you suggest that the JWs believe "Israel" is referring to themselves. In reality, they believe it's only referring to the 144,000 or "spiritual Israel", not the Great Crowd. What they do with the scripture you cited above is typical sleigh-of-hand trickery. They apply the first part of that scripture that says: "....Israel has experienced a hardening in part...." to fleshly Israel, which would be common sense. However, as we know, the WTS, under no circumstances, allows for anyone other than themselves, to have a favoured position so they apply the next words of the very same verse to the Great Crowd "....until the full number of the Gentiles has come in...." And then the last few words of the same verse is applied to "spiritual Isreal"----in other words: themselves: ".....And so all Israel will be saved..."

    Even if you can believe this magic bullet theory, it's unclear who is being referred to when verse 27 says: "...And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins." If this "Israel" that is being saved is referring to "spiritual Israel", then what "sin" did they commit? I'm not aware of what the official teaching is on this last question, but it's worth investigating.

  • *jeremiah*
    *jeremiah*

    Thanks Mary,

    UGH!.....that is so irritating.

    What about verses 11-22?

    What the heck is going through their minds in regards to the ingrafted branches analogy?

    11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!

    23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

    If this is supposed to be the 144,000, then according to scripture they have to fall,...but not beyond recovery, then their salvation is transferred to the Gentiles and then God will bring them back to fullness. This means that the 144,000 has been or has to be cut off and God will graft them in again.

    WTF? When has all this happened?

    Ok, so if the JW's say this is "fleshly Israel", then they have to admit that "Israel has not fallen beyond recovery" and will be brought back to "fullness". (...and we all know they will never admit that God is working with Israel and will eventually be "graft back in".

    Looks like the JW logic is a lose lose situation whatever their viewpoint.

    All they do is make a confused mess of things.

  • Pahpa
    Pahpa

    Russell anticipated the return of Israel in his day. It was Rutherford who "spiritualized" the many prophecies and scriptures that foretold the restoration of Israel by applying them to "spiritual Israel." But this would not make sense particularly in view of Paul's discussion in Romans, chapters 9, 10, 11. He quotes prophecies from the O.T. that apply to fleshly Israel. Just after mentioning "all Israel" he quotes from Isaiah: "The deliverer will come from Zion, he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins." Paul concludes "For God has bound allmen over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."

    While "all Israel" may include those Gentiles who become spiritual Israelites because of their faith, it also has to include fleshly Israel just as the original prophecies indicated.

  • jeshurun
    jeshurun

    I can fully agree with you, Papha

    While "all Israel" may include those Gentiles who become spiritual Israelites because of their faith, it also has to include fleshly Israel just as the original prophecies indicated.

    The phrase

    Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved

    has troubled many.

    The key for solving the problem about ALL ISRAEL, lies in Ro 9:6

    It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel
    This scripture reveals there is a True Israel, the Israel of God. As verse 8 states:

    It is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring

    So, the real seed of Abraham consists of children of the promise, also pictured as the New Creation, or The Israel of God (Ga 6:15-16).

    That Israel of God will in the end include:
    In heaven: The glorified Christian Congregation (1 Thess 4:15-17)
    On earth : The newborn Jewish Congregation (Ez 36:24-28; Is 10:21-23)

  • *jeremiah*
    *jeremiah*

    Pahpa and jeshurun,

    Thanks for your insight and I agree.

    While "all Israel" may include those Gentiles who become spiritual Israelites because of their faith, it also has to include fleshly Israel just as the original prophecies indicated.

    True.

    Yet,...this statement:

    Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved

    ...IMO,...has me thinking that this has to mean 100% "fleshly Israel", simply because it mentions "until the full number of the Gentiles has come in". In other words Israel won't be saved until after the fullness of the Gentiles has been saved.

    Personally, I believe when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in then that will be the end of the church age or age of grace and the rapture will occur.

    Those in Christ will be gone and "hardened Israel" will be left. After their covenant is broken they will have to flee for their lives. I think a remnant will escape and turn to Christ. Thus all of this remnant of Israel will be saved and it will be "all Israel" because this might be the only Israel left.

    The following scriptures tie into this idea.

    15 "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' [ b ] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Matt 24

    6 The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days. Rev. 12

    14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach. Rev. 12

  • rocky220
    rocky220

    Being from Israel or belonging to the Borg doesn't mean you are saved........if you believe this, I have a bridge to sell you.

    rocky220

  • *jeremiah*
    *jeremiah*

    rocky220,

    ...could you elaborate.

    Being from Israel or belonging to the Borg doesn't mean you are saved

    huh?

    If you read through the original post and everyone else's posts, nothing of the sort in your statement is even hinted at.

    Please atleast read threads before you post,...perhaps you will be able to add an opinion that's relative to the context.

  • Mary
    Mary

    This is the only thing I could find in the literature that tries to explain this scripture where it describes what "sin" spiritual Israel committed.... a pretty lame and pathetic explanation, but what else can we expect from the Governing Body:

    *** w 80 11/15 pp. 26-27 "Jehovah of Armies" to the Rescue! ***

    Like the Israelites of Isaiah’s day, the spiritual Israelites sold themselves because of wrong practices and came into bondage to the world empire of false religion, that is to say, to Babylon the Great, and to her worldly paramours. (2 Ki. 17:17; 1 Ki. 21:20, 25) An outstanding instance of this occurred during World War I of 1914-1918. For the captive spiritual Israelites to regain their freedom to serve the true God without restraint and fear, a Repurchaser had to arise in their behalf. He did, in the person of Jehovah himself. By his timely action as such he delivered them for his service. As Zion in Isaiah’s day was the most prominent one of the mountains on which Jerusalem stood as the kingdom’s capital, it is the antitypical Zion to which Jehovah had to come for delivering the Kingdom class. (Rev. 14:1; Isa. 24:23; 52:7) Then the delivered remnant of spiritual Israelites turned from their transgressions against Jehovah, keeping free from all connections with Babylon the Great.—Rev. 18:4.

    Now of course, history tells a different story. The Bible Students most certainly did not "keep free from all connections with Babylon the Great" in 1919 when they were supposedly "chosen" because of their faithfulness. By their own standards, they were still deeply entrenched in "false practices" like the use of the Cross, the celebration of Christmas, Easter, birthdays, etc, the belief in Pyramidology as taught by Charles Russell, the belief that the Last Days started in 1799, smoking was still allowed. How exactly were they "free" from "false practices"? It'd be interesting to phone Bethel and ask someone there.

  • jeshurun
    jeshurun

    Jeremiah

    Personally, I believe when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in then that will be the end of the church age or age of grace and the rapture will occur.

    Those in Christ will be gone and "hardened Israel" will be left. After their covenant is broken they will have to flee for their lives. I think a remnant will escape and turn to Christ. Thus all of this remnant of Israel will be saved and it will be "all Israel" because this might be the only Israel left.


    This is also in my perception how in the end-time [during the 70th Week of Dan 9] affairs are going to unfold in Gods purpose.
    Although your view on ALL ISRAEL differs from mine, the practical outcome is as good as the same.
    Yet a single note concerning ALL ISRAEL:

    For me an additional reason to view ALL ISRAEL as "The Israel of God", is the context in which the phrase occurs: the teaching about the olive tree in Romans 11:16-26.

    In my view the tree is basically Israel, rooted in the Abrahamic covenant and its related promises (Ro 9:3-5; He 6:13-18).
    When the majority of the nation rejected their Messiah "a hardening befell Israel in part" and as branches they were broken off, with the result that unnatural branches, believing Gentiles, were grafted in, and became thus part of Israel, the olive tree (Eph 2:12-13, 19).

    But the consequence of that new development was that the original tree no longer represented national Israel. The Olive had now taken a new shape: the True Israel of God (Ro 9:6-8).

    When the fullness of the Gentiles has come in [Greek: eiselthè, should come in; the word
    saved is not used], that part of the True Israel [the Christian Congregation] finds itself in completeness on the olive tree, obviously ready for the Rapture.

    After that God is dealing again exclusively with national Israel.
    In the course of the 70th Week the Jews face an ultimate decision: Will they accept at last their true Messiah, Jesus, or will they follow to a catastrophic end the pseudo-Christ?
    [The Antichrist, the Man of Lawlessness; 2 Thess 2:3-12]

    As foretold a believing Remnant will fulfil the meaning of the name of Isaiah’s son Shear-Jashub and come out of their age-long disobedience and return to JHWH, the Holy One of Israel. And in fulfilment of Ro 11:24 they too will be grafted in.

    And in this mysterious way [verse 25 is making mention of a mystery] ALL THE TRUE ISRAEL finds itself on the olive and in a saved position.

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