Last days, great tribulation and the return of Christ

by S EIGHT 32 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  S EIGHT

  Hi,

  My journey out began when I came across a Google news report highlighting the "quotes" legal case. Although I had "questions" prior. So that's where I am at the moment although still very "in"

  For over 20 years I've read and studied Matthew chapter 24 and always read it in harmony with Watchtower views. However, I'd like to discuss my personal view of the verses in simple form to get some feedback, since I have been trying out the latest and most fashionable craze "independent thinking"

  According to the Watchtower, Matthew 24 reads as follows:

  1. Christ returns invisibly. 2. This is then followed by a signal to his followers that he has returned by bad things taking place on the earth. 3. A preaching work is to be accomplished. 4. A great tribulation starts which is worse than the events that signalled the return of Christ. 5. Battle of Armageddon commences. 6. Most of the worlds population die apart from a monority which the WTS has been trying to number over the last 100 years.

  What does the bible really teach?

  1. Conditions on the earth during the last days worsen but the end is not yet. 2. There will be a preaching work and also a lot of false prophets. 3. After the tribulation of those days - i.e. the days that Jesus was just talking about - i.e. the tribulation discussed in the first point, when things are just too bad to continue, Jesus returns and everyone see's him - all the tribes of the earth.

  I hope I've made myself clear - I'm rushing before certain people get home and I have to log off.

  In short, read Matthew 24 and see how it describes the events of the times we are living in. Specifically, the great tribulation is not a seperate event and when Jesus returns everyone will know it, not just a select few.

  He will return in all his glory.

  Comments please my friends...

  S8
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  Zico

  Hi S8,
  
  I don't think conditions have to worsen before the end comes. I think Jesus was saying that these things will always happen, and not to look for them as a sign as the end. If conditions had to worsen before the end comes, then how could it come like a thief in the night? If things get too bad to continue, we'll be expecting the thief (end) which contradicts the idea that we have no idea when the thief is coming.
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  Narkissos

  Hi and welcome S EIGHT

  The WT interpretation is hardly worth mentioning...

  As to yours, I would question the suggestion (if I read you correctly) that the "great tribulation" is to be identified to the events of v. 4ff. The latter are "not the end" (v. 6), otoh the "great tribulation" is introduced after the sentence "and then the end will come" (v. 14). The great tribulation exceeds the previous woes (v. 21) which were only "the beginning of the birth pangs" (v. 8).

  What must not be forgotten is that, as far as history is concerned, the whole passage is centered on the Fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple in 70 AD. This is the point throughout (v. 1-3; the "holy place" in v. 15; "Judea" in v. 16; "sabbath" in v. 20).

  I agree with you that the "coming of the Son of Man" is the final event, plain for all to see, not revealed in secret to a chosen few (v. 23ff!). However, it was to occur "immediately after the tribulation" (v. 29), within the same generation (v. 34).

  And that's where the problem lies. To me the scenario of Matthew 24 is clear -- but unfulfilled. To have the passage refer to "our times" one has to break it apart and then any interpretation becomes possible -- even the WT one.
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  S EIGHT

  Hi Zico and Narkissos,

  Thanks for your replies. I'm going to enjoy reading again with your views in mind.

  S8
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  moggy lover

  Hi, S8 and welcome to the Forum. As you have rightly pointed out, the answer to finding the question about the Coming again of Christ lies somewhere in Matt 24, among other verses in the Bible.

  The problem arises when we ask the legitimate question: How is Matt 24 to be understood?

  Unfortunately there is no one answer to this question, and herein lies the debate. There are at least two ways that Christians through the ages have viewed this chapter:

  1 There is the "Preterist" view which holds that all that Christ said there was exhausted in its fulfillment by the 1st C AD and was completed in the 70AD holocaust which saw the destruction of Jerusalem by the Roman armies. So Matt 24 was a "prophecy" only for those 1st C Christians, and is no longer relevant as a prophecy for our time. Any consultation of this portion of Scripture becomes a matter of polemic and syntactical investigation. Several countless Christians have sincerely held this view down through the centuries

  2 There is the "Futurist" view which holds that somehow in His prophecy of Matt 24, Christ managed to entwine two references, one for the past, back in the 1st C AD, and one for the unspecified future. This view holds that Matt 24, which was a prophecy back in the 1st C AD is still a prophecy for us today and the events mentioned therein are still relevant as a study of future events for us today. Like view number one this position has been held by countless Christians, especially since the 16th C when the study of prophecy became a major biblical preoccupation of Bible "students" and which by the mid 19th C gestated the WT movement

  Our problem is that the arrogance of WT belief has led the leadership of that organisation to perpetuate a third and fraudulent view. A view made all the more easy to assimilate because of the constant, almost mesmerizing jargon that intimidates the rank-and-file to accept, without question, and without the opportunity of debate, the position that the leadership of the WTS acts as an exclusive spokseperson for the God of the Bible.This view is that what Matt 24 is talking about is occuring in the present, in the here and now. And with the WTS as the centre of the universe, what is being said there, reflects their relationship to prophecy. In other words, what is happening in the Bible, is what is happening to them. Exclusively.

  Lets take a single example: Matt 24:14.

  According to the prterist view this was in fact well accomplished back there in the 1st C where scripture tells us that the "faith was being proclaimed throughout the whole world" Ro 1:8

  According to the futurist view, this will be accomplished in the unspecified future, during a time of unprecedented trouble called the "Great Tribulation" and which according to some evangelical believers will last for seven years. Despite the agony through which the world will be going through, still somehow, this gospel message will be proclaimed, so that without exception, every single person alive will, and I mean will, hear this message. Many evangelicals believe that this message will be proclaimed by a group of 144 thousand Jewish "Billy Grahams" Anyway, however it will be done, it is, according to the futurists, an event that is still to occur.

  The arrogance of the WT view is that this being fulfilled at the present time, and exclusively by them. The insipid folly of accepting this view is seen when you consult the record. Despite the fact the WTS has been proclaiming this message with mangled contradictions for the past 127 years little is genuinely known about it. Even in the very heart of WT country, round the corner from Bethel HQ, very few of the general citizenry will be cogent enough to explain the WT message. Then there are the huge swathes of territory virtually untouched by the WT message. A camel trader in Uzbekistan knows as much about the WT message as does the man in the moon. He will probably be better informed about the "golden plates" of Joseph Smith, or the dietry observations of Ellen White.

  Such groups as the Mormons and the SDAs have surpassed the penetrative volume of the WT message.

  And we are asked to believe that the flawed and puny counterfeit perpetetuated by the WTS is imperative to our future

  Cheers
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  PrimateDave

  Hi S,
  
  Welcome to the forum! You will no doubt encounter quite a few different viewpoints here. You have already received some excellent replies. I would like to offer this possibility: Consider for a moment that Matthew 24 was written by and for people of the second century a.d., and that it has absolutely nothing whatsoever to offer us in the 21st century except as a page in mankind's religious history.
  
  What would that mean for us? That there are no "last days". Therefore, there will be no "great tribulation", at least not one of a divine origin, and there will be no "return of Christ". What if each one of us, if we are lucky, will have mere decades of life on this planet, and no more. No one can say for certain that there will or will not be some "afterlife". Can you take the Bible's word for it, just because it says so? That is circular logic.
  
  So, those are my thoughts on the matter. The point is to make each day you have the best it can be and enjoy the life you have right now instead of waiting for something else that may never happen.
  
  Dave
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  cyberguy

  Hi S Eight! Welcome to the board!

  As you know the WT teaches multiple returns of Christ (a recent thread quoted a GB member that said there were 7 returns of Christ), and that some of these returns are associated with dates such as 1914, 1918, 1919, and that these dates can somehow be calculated via encrypted prophecies in the Bible. They also teach that the other returns are future and are not associated with dates, but are “just around the corner,” “very soon now!” WT made an adjustment (“new light”) some years ago whereby the return described in 24:30 is future (previously they tied it to 1914) and that it would include some kind of visible manifestation. Finally, by claiming multiple returns of Christ, they get around a nagging issue with Jesus’ statement that “nobody knows” the “day and hour” (Matt 24:36). That is, his return in 1914 they know, somehow, but future returns that don’t know. Anyway, let me briefly comment on an invisible return of Christ.

  The NWT at Matt. 28:20 says: “And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.” How is Jesus “with” his disciples, visibly or invisibly? I guess it must be invisibly. And if he is “with” his disciples, he’d be present, no? Therefore, if he has been invisibly present with his disciples since those words were uttered, why would he give a “composite sign” to help them discern in the future that he is “invisibly present?” Furthermore, Jesus warned his disciples to not be misled by those who say “Look! He is in the inner chambers” (Matt 24:25), that is hidden; this also would rule out an “invisible” return.

  Actually, if you look at all the illustrations that Jesus gave, you would be hard pressed to conclude that there are multiple returns of Christ. In their simplicity is a common thread of his going away then returning at a later time. When he returns he judges and separates, rewarding the faithful and condemning the unfaithful. That said, the simple answer is that the scriptures imply only one return of Christ with some kind of visible manifestation by those coming under adverse judgment as well as the faithful, “they will see the Son of man coming” (Mark 13:24-227, Luke 21:26-28).

  Regarding a “composite sign” (WT terminology), WT is not alone in their beliefs since many charismatic Christian groups also believe that the end-time prophesies are being fulfilled at this time; they are expecting the return of Christ must be very near! However, let me present an alternate view which you may want to reflect on.

  In all end-time prophesies, Jesus first words to his disciples’ questions were “Look out that nobody misleads YOU; for…” (see Matt. 24:3-4, Mark 13:4-5, Luke 21:7-8). Therefore, the long list of events and troubles that follow were given NOT to tell them the nearness of his return (or in the case of WT, the multiple returns of Christ starting in 1914), but as a warning not to be mislead into thinking that he is about to return! In other words, they comprise a NOT SIGN, and a warning not to be mislead. The events listed “must take place, but the end is not yet” (Matt. 24:6). Hence, Jesus urges his disciples to “keep on the watch,” “prove yourselves ready, because at an hour that YOU do not think to be it, the Son of man is coming” (Matt. 24:42, 44, see also 25:13). Finally, the only sign given for his return is the “sign of the Son of man” (Matt 24:30), which is evidently some kind of visible manifestation.

  I’ll comment more as I have time. Do keep up your “independent thinking!”
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  proplog2

  The biggest mistake is that the Watchtower is one of those who say "Look! Here is the Christ. Look! He is in the wilderness! Look He is in the inner chambers! The due time has approached!

  Obviously those declaring that Christ has come in some way that isn't plainly evident are false prophets. If someone is in the wilderness he's not yet visible. If someone is in the inner chamber you can't see him. There is no need to declare "Look! There he is." if every eye can see him. And when he becomes visible it seems the beholders have no trouble figuring out what they are looking at.

  As for the idea that Jesus comes like a thief in the night: 1Thess 5:4 "But you brothers, you are NOT in darkness so that that day should overtake yuou as it would thieves...(6) So then let us stay awake and keep our senses. AND Luke 21:36 "Keep awake, then...that you may succeed in escaping all these things that are destined to occur and in standing before the son of man."

  The signal event is the "disgusting thing standing where it ought not". You need to escape by taking flight. But flight from where to where? That is the important question.
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  lovelylil

  Narkissos,

  I respect your opinion on Matthew 24 and I agree with most of it regarding the "great tribulation" aspect but disagree on your last point. Many Christians, myself included believe that Matthew 24 will have two fulfillments. One like you said already happened with the destruction of Jerusalem and the other will be in the final end times. That is when Matthew 24 will be fulfilled in its fullest sense. So I do not agree that this is an "unfulfilled" prophecy rather it is "not yet" fulfilled.

  In the beginning of Matthew 24:3 it alludes to two seperate events being asked about. the first being when the destruction of the temple will take place (verse 2) and the second event is when the "coming of Christ and conclusion of this age" will be (verse 3). Jesus does not distinguish very much between these two events so we must read Matthew 24 carefully.

  By taking note that there are two events here and not just one (the temple destruction), Matthew 24 makes more sense. We can see then that "This generation" does not apply to the generation alive during the destruction of the temple but rather can refer to the generation alive during the 2nd coming of Christ who will witness the events just prior to his return. This seems to be so because the tone of Matthew 24 changes into speaking about the coming of Christ (the 2nd event) around verse 25-26. This verse and those afterward fortell events that we know were not fulfilled in connection with Jerusalem's destruction including the fact that Christ did not return at that time. Thus, these next few verses apply to this 2nd event and they (the ones alive during the coming of Christ) are the "generation" that is being spoken of here. Not the generation alive during the destruction of the temple. Rather it is this later generation who will see "all these things" meaning they will have lived past the time of the temple destruction which although they may not have been alive for, they can "see" that it has been destroyed. And this generation will see or witness the events not fulfilled at that time including the 2nd coming of Christ. Only then will Matthew 24 be totally fulfilled. (See also Luke 21:32). Peace, Lilly
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  Narkissos

  The signal event is the "disgusting thing standing where it ought not". You need to escape by taking flight. But flight from where to where? That is the important question.

  Then the answer is easy: From Judea. To the mountains.

  Jesus does not distinguish very much between these two events so we must read Matthew 24 carefully.

  Why do you think he doesn't?

  By taking note that there are two events here and not just one (the temple destruction), Matthew 24 makes more sense. We can see then that "This generation" does not apply to the generation alive during the destruction of the temple but rather can refer to the generation alive during the 2nd coming of Christ who will witness the events just prior to his return. This seems to be so because the tone of Matthew 24 changes into speaking about the coming of Christ (the 2nd event) around verse 25-26. This verse and those afterward fortell events that we know were not fulfilled in connection with Jerusalem's destruction including the fact that Christ did not return at that time. Thus, these next few verses apply to this 2nd event and they (the ones alive during the coming of Christ) are the "generation" that is being spoken of here. Not the generation alive during the destruction of the temple. Rather it is this later generation who will see "all these things" meaning they will have lived past the time of the temple destruction which although they may not have been alive for, they can "see" that it has been destroyed. And this generation will see or witness the events not fulfilled at that time including the 2nd coming of Christ. Only then will Matthew 24 be totally fulfilled. (See also Luke 21:32).

  Ahem... is this really simpler than the WT explanation?

  Two sets of events (the fall of Jerusalem and the coming of the Son of Man), yes. Linked by "immediately after" and "this generation shall not pass".

  If "immediately after" actually means millenia, and "this generation" actually means "another generation" why were those expressions used in the first place?

  A sentence like "this generation shall not pass before all these things occur" doesn't mean anything but a limited time span, and it makes sense only as long as it refers to a specific terminus a quo (starting point).

  What would be the point of saying "Some later generation shall not pass before all these things occur"? For such a sentence to make any sense you'll have to posit another terminus a quo for that generation -- another 1914, in effect.